Raw Food Forums

Hey, what are people's thoughts on vitamin B-12?

I had a blood test recently. I had actually been thinking that I had been vegan for about 1 year, but I got a blood test the day I first went vegan (my GP said it would make a good control to future blood tests), and that was at least two years ago... my, how time flies when you're having fun! <grin>

My doctor said my B-12 was OK, my calcium was good, and... despite the warnings about how all would go to hell in a handbasket & I would "become anaemic", my iron is now significantly higher than before I went vegan! ... and before I went vegan I was eating tuna & taking iron tablets, now I just eat as much fresh fruit, nuts, seeds and salads as I want, no tablets, and my iron is now higher! :mellow:

   Anyways, the only thing worrying me is my B-12. My doctor said to just keep getting it tested, so it doesn't get too low. Why can't our bodies make it for themselves, didn't they in ancient times like other animal species? And where do the gorillas get theirs? I'm told they don't eat any meat.

Siobhan

Hi Siobhan

It is true that humans can make B12 from their intestinal bacteria however it is produced in an area below where B12 is absorbed, and most people don’t have such a healthy digestive system to start with.

Gorillas will apparently sometimes eat their own faeces which contains the B12 that they would have produced in their intestines.

Gabriel Cousens recommends that vegans take a B12 supplement of at least 6 mcg a day.

I have been vegan for a week now and I think that I will start having regular blood tests in 9 months to see how I am going and take it from there!

i have been eating 100% raw for over 3 years now,never had any tests for Vit B12,i am cruising all is well...do a search here on vitamin B12,there is a whole massive topic with varying opinions for you to read through..

Hey Janita,

   Where abouts is that? I saw an article on page 4 (I think) under "Raw Facts, Info and Science", but there were not replies at all... This whole B12 thing is really, really confusing... I'd still have a test though, my GP said if worst comes to worst I can get an injection which only costs around $6, so if I find I get too low I'll probably do just that. I was trying to take a multivitamin about a month or so ago, & I just couldn't keep it down, not for love or money - so I guess the injection is the lesser of two evils. :(

Siobhan

Something else to consider... Most wild primates make around 5% of their entire diet wild flowers, according to Jane Goodall. Flowers contain pollen. Wild pollen doesn't *consistently* contain b12, so legally pollen sellers can't say "It's a good source of b12". Anyway, most of the b12 would be damaged by the standard pollen high temperature drying process. Pollen does *sometimes* contain significant amounts of b12 though (especially when wild), and so if a primate was consistently eating large amounts (like 5% of their diet) of varied, raw, *wild* flowers, then theoretically a certain amount of those would contain enough b12 for the body to store and make use of.

No research money has been put towards testing this theory yet that I'm aware of. Who gains from us eating wild flowers? (Well, other than us! :) )

Something to think about though... ;)

Hmmm... Very interesting. One would have to be familiar with flowers, so as to avoid eating anything poisonous, of course! <laugh>

   Still, adding a few flowers to my diet sounds delicious! :)

Siobhan

I just ate some pak choy and choy sum flowers with the leaves for dinner as a salad with orange on top and some festival lettuce!    

The bowl was a huge stainless steel mixing bowl full, 1 whole lettuce, with 3 oranges (2 in wedges, 1 juiced).

I love asian-greens-flowers.  They are nice and sweet!

Oooh, our pak choy in the garden has gone to flower, now I can't wait to eat them! Thanks Jen!

Thank you Piers for that exceptional information about some flowers contining B12.
This is always such a hotly debated issue with much confusion it seems.  The points you make about animals eating flowers fits in perfectly with the research gatherd on chimpanzees by Victoria Boutenko for her book "Green For LIfe".

Early on in my search for all things about a raw food lifestyle, when I began my transition about 1 year ago, I came across an excellent article titled:  THE VITAMIN B12 ISSUE, by Dr Gina Shaw, D.S., M.A., AIYS (Dip. Irid.)

It is found near the bottom of a VERY long page of this raw web-site:  http://www.homestead.com/raweugene/rawarticles.html

I found it quite reasuring and exceptional informative, and maybe some here will also find it helpful.
By the way I am not sure if it is alright to post the addresses for other sites? I looked through posting information under help and could not find anything that said not too, but if I am in error I appologize for that.

welcome Belanna....thought our dear joss was back...you have the same pic as her...lol -_-

lovely to have you with us

It seems if you have plenty of greens it helps.

I read somewhere if you have plently of greens we produce this b12 in the intestines.

I tested myself and my b12 is normal after 4 years eating raw

you can find the article of G. Cousens about B-12 here:

http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12article.html (http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12article.html)

...just read the other posted article and the theory of Wolfe that some B12 is found in wild plants and unwashed plants of our garden trough the microbes and friendly bacteria in the soil... i always like to eat wild plants unwashed directly from the ground... if i know that's chemical free...

 

I 'heard' that b12 deficiency can creep up on you over a time period - I guess regular blood testing is the way to constantly check.

What are the symptoms of deficiency anyway?

When B12 is deficient the nervous system really suffers, which is why this can be a lethal deficiency. The reason it is said to 'creep up' is that symptoms such as ataxia (Inability to balance) numbness and tingling in the extremities, etc, don't really show up until the deficiency is very advanced.
Most people don't think regular blood tests are a good way to keep track of B12 because it is not it your blood that it is needed so the amount in your blood isn't really valid. The MMA test (just Google it for details) is very expensive apparently, but the best way to know what's up with your B12.

Personally, I'm not concerned - are the omnivorous people of our world flocking to get their B12 checked? No. Sure, they eat beef but they cook it, so chances are the B12 is pretty damaged (if not destroyed) byt the time it reaches their body, and said body is going to have trouble doing anything with it in that state. We raw vegans are eating our natural diet - all is fine!  :ohyeah:

Dulse is a source of vitamin B-12 and to my best knowledge raw-vegan.

Hey RawDutchie, dulse is raw vegan, as is spirulina that also contains vitamin B12. However, 2 forms of the vitamin exist and unfortunately the form found in these products (both sea vegetables, for anyone who doesn't know) is not the form used by our body.
I, however, don't know how effectively the body is able to convert it to a useable form.
Thanks for adding this to the discussion!  :ohyeah:

 :shrug:yeah and sea greens actually can cause deficiency because its anolog b-12 takes up the receptor sites

The best way to get b-12 into the bloodstream is to put the tablet under the tongue and let it dissolve and absorb into the bloodstream. A better way to take it then injections.

My story is much like Shelly who suffered from depo provera. Before i became familiar with the raw food diet i took depo provera contraceptive. Which depletes the body of b12.

Not having b12 in the body not only affects nervous system but also causes anxiety and adrenal insufficiency. Great stress to the whole body and mentally unalert.

B12 regulates the heart, brain blood barrier and transports oxygen from these two major organs. It is an excellent anxiety reliever if you dissolve the tablet under the toungue.

I always used natures own brand for this as it was the easiest to dissolve under the tongue and always stopped my anxiety attacks. But natures own changed their tablet formulations so now it crumbles and im so disspointed with this. Blackmores is even worser as it more tablet form and crumbles yeeeuuucckk. Im trying to look for a smooth tablet for now to place under the tongue.  :yawn:

A saliva test gives more accurate results then a blood test. Blood tests are not always accurate.

According to Ronald Bradley who runs Hippocrates Australia: Cooked food vegans can suffer from B12 deficiency. Raw food vegans do not.

I have much research on the B12 controversy. Viewed as a whole it seems that we still have a long way to go before we come anywhere near a mature understanding of the science behind the B12 vitamin.

Some interesting snippets though:

An equal proportion of meat eaters suffer from B12 deficiency.

From memory, Doug Graham has observed improved B12 levels during extended fasting!

Probably the best discourse on B12 I have ever read come from the unlikely source of a cookbook:
"Classic Vegetarian Cooking" by Jean and Sue Easthope. I enclose the following snippets from it:

The process by which vitamin B12 is absorbed is unique among nutritional substances. The parietal cells lining the stomach wall secrete a substance, termed 'intrinsic factor', which combines with the B12, called "extrinsic factor', before this vitamin can be absorbed by the body. This combined complex then moves through the digestive tract to the ileum, the distant portion of the small bowel where it is grabbed by a group of receptor molecules located on the gut lining; these receptors seem to relish B12 and nothing else! The B12 is then bound to a protein transporter in the blood stream and carried to the many growing cells. Any unused B12 is excreted, mainly by way of the bile and so poured back into the intestinal tract. As the excreted bile passes through the ileum about two-thirds of this excreted B12 is re-absorbed and again made available to the body; a neat economical process.

The source of vitamin B12 is also unique. B12 is manufactured only by certain bacteria, a small number of moulds and a few other micro-organisms that occur in soil, ponds of water and even sea water, and their presence in these natural habitats leads to very low concentrations of B12 in the soil and natural springs. So animals browsing in the fields and drinking from streams and dams easily pick up adequate vitamin B12 for their daily needs. The carnivores, including meat-eating man, who use these animals for food, get their vitamin B12 by appropriating this material from what has been stored in the tissues of their victims.[/u]

Studies have been carried out on vegans of long-standing, and the results arc interesting. Over four to five years after adopting the vegan diet the reserves of vitamin B12 are gradually used up and the serum level of B12 stabilizes around 100 milligrams per millilitre, a level generally considered bordering on the danger line of low. But the test individuals were enjoying excellent health and not taking vitamin B12 supplements in their diet.

Of course, if we were not so inhibited by our excessive regard for cleanliness and hygiene, we would not be worrying about vitamin B12. The vegetarian cultures we have referred to have managed for centuries, but then they do not put their water supplies through chemical purifying processes and they don't scrub, peel and boil their vegetables as conscientiously as we do. Rhesus monkeys live on a fruit diet and in hygienic captivity they sometimes suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency, though they are healthy in the wild.[/u]

The primary cause of vitamin B12 deficiency is considered to be the lack of this particular vitamin in the diet, [u]but the secondary cause is more important— malabsorption of the vitamin. There are many causes for this malabsorption: relative lack of the intrinsic factor produced by the parietal cells of the stomach lining[/i[/u][/b]] as a result of disease and/or surgery of the stomach; diseases of the small bowel and, in particular, of the ileum, the principal site of absorption;


Good Health,
Neo.

thanks for an awesome post Neo.... :mellow:

"RawChef" on the eat.rawfood.com forums posted this link:

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html

I am not sure how it measures up to the other information posted here.

Fab post neo,

We have dam water coming out of out taps here, and it has been tested as safe, so i am thinking i may not worry about it so much when i use it to rinse food and occasionally drink (when i cant be bothered collecting the rainwater from out tank down the way). it probably has the goodies in it. I wont guzzle it but the the bit that slips into my diet is probably not bad.
Last time i had a blood test 4 years ago my B12 was lower than previous one and i was just plain ovo-lacto vego and cooking. Would be interesting to do one and compare now.