Raw Food Forums

Hi All,

The sun's been shining and I've been in shorts and feeling fabbo! I have started walking again after being lazy all winter. It's very exiting. Then one morning I felt loaded with energy. I mean loaded, like if you touched me you would be zapped! So I ran. And I couldn't get over how far I could run. Now I've never been a runner. Basically I'm a lazy, lazy person. If I'm not passionate about it I don't want to do it and that is that.

In the past I've tried running to vent anger as well as other things but never really got far with it. Now though, I'm looking forward to running most mornings. This morning I ran for about two minutes! Now this might not seem much to you but when I first went raw 10 seconds was about as long as I could run for. Jog. I walk really fast and run slow. I think I jog only slightly faster than I walk but I'm happy with that.

I could have kept running but my dog had to stop to lay some barker eggs and I had to pick them up and I lost my groove! Plus it really sucks when your running with a bag of poo and as you swing your arms back and forth it swings and bounces off your hand but that is one of the things about having a dog yes?

Anyhow, I ran for most of my walk this morning and feel fantastic. I've been so happy and clear headed.

Questions:

1.) Does the happiness, high energy and clearheadedness mean that my body has started to release endorphins? I can't remember feeling this light and bouncy. I just want to hug every one! It's seriously like I've taken a happy pill or some other illicit substance....

2.) Mind over matter. This morning I started my run earlier than normal. I usually wait until I get away from the road and on a path because I'm quite errrrr chesty and I get self conscious about the ummmm bouncy bits when I run. Don't want to cause a car crash! But this morning I started running to cross a road and just kept going and going AND going! However, when I got to the footpath, I could only run in short bursts again. I don't know if I used up my energy in the long (for me!) jog or if this was my mind playing tricks and telling my bod to stop running here because that's what it's used to... any ideas on how to change this anyone?

3.) Why do my arms hurt after a run? And my upper back and shoulders too? I make a conscious effort to relax my arms and shoulders while I'm jogging. I'm guessing that it's because my arms aren't used to being in that position and swinging

That's it for now! Thanks so much.

xooxxo

Hiya Jen,

Welcome to the running raw club :yahh: 

Yup, it does feel fantastic and so energising, and happiness flows from the sense of achievement as well as from the body chemicals.  I'd say you've run to the gates of endorphin city certainly :ohyeah:

Get yourself a good aerobic crop top.  My number one reason was to stop stupid bra straps falling down - you can't get into a groove of running when you're having to mess up your rhythm to see to those.  But I tell ya, having the bounce stop is soooooo much more comfortable.  You can just get on with running like a man would and that's all good.  And I can't recommend strongly enough that after you stop running cos you're pooped, walk a bit and then run some more.  Doesn't matter how short the extra distance is, run, walk, run, walk and keep it going a little more.  This is precisely what I do with my letterboxes - run, stop to deliver, run.... yet when I transfer this stop/start to a treadmill I can now run for 25 mins non-stop so I guarantee to you that it works!

I'm no expert on the upper body pain but I'm sure you're right that it's tension.  I used to get a lot of tension in the left side of my neck and across the top of my left shoulder but I just continued to always consciously relax the area as best I could and now I don't get that any more.  On one of your walking times just shake out the area to loosen it up and eventually you won't get the tension at all.  It does seem odd to get the pain when you're 'not using that area', but you are, for balance or propulsion.  Perhaps that's why it gets tense, it's not really moving a lot, just tensing to support you and staying on one position.

Happy days!!! :)

Love
May

Yey for running!!! It feels so fabulous! I love the burst of energy I get afterwards, makes the day seem some how better.

As to upper-body soreness, my whole body was sore when I first started out, I think it's normal. Make sure you stretch really well after your run and then the next day too.  

Since going raw a year ago I have stopped running.  Before raw I would run at least 5 times a week but now I just don't have the energy.  The only time I get out and run is when I play netball 3 x times a week.  My point being, when I do run either netball or running, my legs get really hard and firm.  I am not sure if it is a blood circulation problem or fluid being drawn to the muscles.  If I don't exercise my legs tend to go softer, a much better look for me anyway.  But if I don't exercise then the BF goes up.

Anyone had a similar experience with the leg issue?  Any tips would be appreciated.  I suppose I want the legs I can't have.  Shouldn't focus on it so much.  LOL

xxx

No advise from me Jen just Yippee for you  :yahh: :ohyeah: :yahh: :ohyeah: :yahh:

Yaaay-Jen, yes running is a great high and wonderful for your mental health. Keep going!

legs get cosmetically worse with running? we must be wearing different glasses..cos i reckon all legs get better with running..

it takes me an hour of running to really get in the groove...the 'higher than a line of cocaine' groove..where im smash'n along..
so yeah i just have to remind myself that it takes time to warm up..same with a bikeride..takes a 100km before im really into it..sometimes 200km when im really doing some training..

ease into it..start slow and build up from there..
we are aiming for life long changes..not flash in the pan 'im fit for one summer of my life..'

oh and relax your shoulders...

the whole barker eggs and runnin with poo just made my night....seriously!

Thanks for the replies all. I got out of bed the next day and nearly collapsed! My leg muscles were so sore. I haven't run since for a variety of reasons but intend to tomorrow although my muscles are still very tight and sore.

Harley, I have been really trying to relax my shoulders when I run. I feel very loose in that area.

21CG, glad to have made your day!

xoxoxo

Jen my dear, great to hear you enjoying your running.

As for the shoulders.... if you are swinging your arms across your body as you run it may be the problem. Try swinging straight back and forward with your forarms slightly lower than you elbows. Keep your thumb and index fingers together gently... this is supposed to relieve shoulder tension when running. It's a common problem when you first start running, keep it up and you will find your rythmn.

Happy running and take it easy... nothing wrong with a good walk either!!!

Karen
xx

Thanks Karen, I do swing my arms across my bod! I'll let you know how I go.

Maysie, I hope you see this. I went shopping at a sports store on the weekend and tried on Bra's and crop tops. Caitlyn and I had great fun as I tried them on and jumped up and down to see which was the most effective!!!

Annette, do your legs feel tense even when you aren't exercising? I'm not sure what you mean. I have read that muscles can be extremely strong yet supple and jelly like to touch. I read that in 'the way of the peaceful warrior'. How's your flexibility? I would be worried if my muscles were rock hard all the time. Maybe massage could help? I have a friend who is a massage therapist, I'll ask him.

Firstly this is typical of me. I don't know what happened, maybe I couldn't handle feeling so great but I had a big cooked binge on Saturday night. Actually I wasn't feeling great then, I was an emotional shipwreck... so i was probably stuffing down things as I do.... anyhow, I walked today and yesterday and lo and behold, no energy. I slumped home today after forcing myself to walk. Back on GS feasting again. It's been a lesson on what cooked food can do I tell you. One day running further than I ever thought I would and what four (?) days later I can hardly walk it? Hmmmm.

Tomorrow I will start to bounce again!

xooxo

Jen,  I am embarrassed to say I have little or no flexibility.  hee hee.  I do try and stretch after running but my hami's are quite tight.

I don't think my legs are supple, they aren't jelly like either.  Sometimes they appear quite firm and bloated looking (if that makes sense) after running or other forms of exercise.  I am not sure what causes it?

Hope you are feeling better soon.  Today I was going to have a whole day of melons.  The watermelon threw me out of balance, too much sugar and then I found myself binging on biscuits and bread and butter (haven't had any overt fats of late - hence the need for butter).  Also ran this morning too.  So, all day I have had the worst stomach pains and then tonight I had the runs(literally to the toilet - sorry).  My tummy is feeling better...just finished two juicy apples.

Have planned to run tomorrow but am feeling a little lethargic at the moment will see how I go tonight after a good nights rest.  We live and learn from our cooked eating episodes.

Annette

Jennie, good on ya for the bod.actife :laugh:

upper body - is used in running and walking extensively and any weaknes and underdevelopment in this depertments will show up, it is a missconcept, that running-walking is a legs exercise - it is full body exercise.

the running-walking is generated from the core, and than each impact and momentum is processed in the core as well, the arm movement is extremely important for the balance, and for generating the exercise rhytm so to speak.
If YOu are at athletic races, uphill running races, racewalking races etc, You can hear coaches screaming about the arms movement - move those arms - arms faster etc. The running strategy - move arms faster legs will follow,
it goes from sprints all teh way to marathons and beyond, on thej track, road and in the mountains...

look at the sprinters - their upper body is huge not only from steroids, upper body of distance runners is slimm but extremely powerfull and have no fat, since it is working all the time.

Me personaly, when I have racewalking race or hard training, the next day it is the upper back and the whole upper body which is sore and tired, more than the legs, and I am targetting this with various body exercises,
1 example is rowing movements, but really all need to be done.

So no surprise that upper body is sore after run, just shows it needs more attentions also on nonrunning days.


Legs - this strategy is in my view best for begginers :

focus on very short strides, run should NOT be a serioes of long jumps from 1 leg to other, it should be very fluent nonjumping movement where the egs do very fast but very short strides under the body, just cushioning the jarring etc. The average frequency - turnover is 180 per minute, meaning that each 60 seconds the left leg makes 90 soft contacts with the ground, and the right leg makes 90 soft contacts with the ground.

Each training session concentrate on very short and fast strides and count the turnover - wath the watch and count 1 leg for 60 secs or 30 secs, and try to go faster that the racing turnover of 180.

You can actualy move very slower, nearly like skipping on the spot and just do short strides with fast turnover.

next challenge is the breathing - You need realy like 2 brains - or spilt personality - 1 is moving the legs faster into fast turnover, and the second is breathing the lungs very slowly but extremely deep - so the breathing is teh deepest possible. The different rhytm required makes it difficult at the beggining.


Fast legs need the fast arm movement - just speed up the arms and the legs will follow.

with the fast short stride, there is going to much less leg pain as it is not causing any joint,tendons muscle damage.

It is comparable to riding teh bike and using the easiest gears possible - so bvasicaly just spinning for free axtremely fast with no resistance- I am sure Harley have specific terminology for this, I am just using my noncycling language to illustrate.

next lesson - how to prepare for a marathon in 18 weeks  :uhuh:just kidding

Hey Annette, I hope you feel better tomorrow darls. Isn't it awful when you go back and eat some bread and bikkies. My last cooked binge was pasta with freshly grated parmesan, butter, salt and pepper. Tasted great but left me feeling blerk and I still haven't recovered! So I know how you feel but I sincerely hope that in 6 months I have left that all behind me! I don't know what to think about your legs. Have you talked to anyone about it? Like personal trainers or anything? I don't really know anything about this. Get into yoga girl!!!

Hi Rudy, Thanks so much for your detailed post! Loved it. When I ran yesterday I took Karen's advice about how to hold my arms and I have no shoulder pain today. I'm a little tight in the upper back but no serious pain which is great. On that note I have to say it was difficult to touch index fingers and thumbs with the dog lead in one hand and the bag of poo in the other but I managed!

I've been taking small steps which I feel much more comfortable with. When I take long strides I tend to worry too much about falling and tense up.

Luckily I have multiple personalities (just ask Bill *wink*) but the breathing thing is my downfall. I have a lot of trouble in this area. I was told a long time ago to breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth but when I do this I feel like I'm going to pass out. At the moment I'm just mouth breathing but my mouth gets dry. My lungs are my downfall.

After a lifetime of no exercise and smoking many cigarettes from the age of 12 (Pack of 25 per day at 12, pack of 50 a day by 26 when I gave up). I run out of breath. I've been doing deep breathing exercises to help with this but ended up with much too much oxygen in my blood and constantly felt out of breath. I breathed out one day as much as I could and held my breath for over one and a half minutes while my body used up all of the oxygen in my blood. At least I know that now. It's like athsma. Yetch  My running is more of an exercise for the lungs than for the legs. My fear is that I will have emphysema and that's why I have so many troubles with my cardio vascular system even though I haven't smoked for nearly 9 years.

What are your thoughts on this Rudy? And anyone else reading?

xoxoxo

HI Jen

Glad to hear your run went better today.  All the best with it.  About a year ago I used to run everyday but know I am trying to vary my training.  It can become a little addictive.

Rudolf are you describing the chi running technique?  I was thinking about purchasing their CD/book.  I need to see the techique not very good at trying to paint a picture, hee hee.  Do you think it is worth while buying it? 

With the technique you are describing above to you basically just do a small jump up and down and land on your toes?  As I said I am not very good without pictures.

Thanks
Annette

Great news Jen, you are a runner after all:GOOD FOR YOU(I can just about manage a power walk:) sound's like those happy endorphines are hitting at ya:)

Excellent tip from May, a GOOD supportive sports bra is a ESSENTIAL must-have wise investment (buy the finest quality brand you can afford) for all female runners with a chest that jiggles / bounces when you so much as jump (you have been warned girls:)!

I can relate to the breathing thing Jen, I have been told I have poor lung capacity:( It explains why I've never been able to blow up balloons) too. Studies have shown the humble apple can really significantly help improve lung function (just as well I love apples:).The breathing advice you were given is correct, like you I subconsciously used my mouth to breath and really have to be aware of what I'm doing. There are some great yogic breathing techniques for optimal breath out there. Try google!

I'm no runner(this makes me giggle just thinking about it) but have read up on it a fair bit. Stretching prior and post run is essential (Tibetan Rites would be ideal) as is a strong core, as well as good running technique(find via google) and keep to soft grass to prevent injuries and harsh impact on joints. Have you thought about investing in a rebounder as it's a lot safer, to joints at least. Wishing you well whatever you decide:)       

Jennie, I am not sure what are You asking me, the only question I can see there was what I think about You having a fear ? But I have feel that was not it, so please aks again sometimes I am bit too slow, sorry...

Annette, while I read a bit about Chi running, from the website, to me it is just some common sense and the running technique for begginers packaged as a selling product, but it helped lots of joggers who would not know otherwise, so while I am personaly not interested in those products, they can help others...
And NO I am not saying short jumps up and down - thats more like a running sprinting drill for calves muscles..
I am saying NO JUMPS AT ALL, the body should not move up and down, suppose You are running behind the wall or fence, and only Your head and neck is visibke above the fence, somebody watching You from behind the fence should NOT be able to tell the strides, count them, tell when You hit the ground and when You are above the ground etc, only Your head would be moving in a line without any vertical moves, so the person can think :
well she is either sitting on a bike and pedaling slowly and smoothely, or she is standing on a skateboard and just rolling down the slight slope....
This visualisation exercise is usefull :
there is a lake and a thin rice paper is put on teh water very carefully across the lake forming the bridge like.
If You run across it without hitting it, just touching it very slightly, that the rice paper would not break and YOu can run all across the water.
Another physical exercise is run barefoot on gravel - steps would be short and very light, because it is painfull to hit the rocks barefoot.


To make run faster the frequency of steps increases, so more steps per minute, but the smoothness and NO hiting the ground stays.

here is one discussion on CHI RUNNING :

http://www.coolrunning.com.au/forums/index.php?showtopic=16058&st=0 (http://www.coolrunning.com.au/forums/index.php?showtopic=16058&st=0)

it just shows how different views are on it and where the discussion can get





edited to make link clickable

Rudy, even I aren't sure what I was asking there! Gosh I can ramble on. Sorry to confuse you!

Today I doubled the distance I have run  on any previous day. I felt so great! Eventually I stopped because I felt sooooooo outta breath. My legs were a little jelly like but not too bad! It feels good to know that I'm on my way.

Rudy, I would love to know how to prepare for a marathon in 18 weeks! That doesn't mean that I'm up for it now but say February I think would be a great time to start!

xooxo

every footstep you take today..powers our marathon dreams tommorrow..
more miles today
means more smiles raceday

i started running 30 seconds a day for 3 months to get some fitness. if i forgot and was in bed, id get up and jog on the bed for 30 seconds! lol! true story..

so what we can aim for is daily exercise..constistent and persistent..do at least 30 seconds of running day..to keep the running action smooth and efficient..and eventually doing 10km runs and 20 km runs will come naturally...

we win durian speed eating competitions one bite at a time.
we train for life one day at a time
we run a marathon one step at a time.

oldest marathon finisher is 98.
people with no legs do marathons.
people that cant see run marathons.
people that eat big macs do marathons..

hardest thing about marathons is believing we can do it.
so get the know how.
believe it..
and then go out and do it and prove yourself right.

every step counts..

How long ago was that Harl's? It's very inspiring knowing where you are now to hear that you were that unfit. I'd love to hear a little more about how you went from not being able to run to running marathon's and becoming an endurance athlete.

xoxo

Harley jooging for 30 secs on his bed - that must a picture :laugh:

Jennie , sorry that was a cruel joke, joke going on in running circles, at the running magazines and websites of some gurus offering proggrams to run marathon in 12-18 weeks. Really that not what I would suggest.
Marathon is serious stuff but is not different to anything else and every progress needs to be done gradualy, yes the marathon can be there as the goal or one of the goals, but I would never tell anybody get ready for marathon in 18 weeks.

I suggest You focus on running generaly, keep increasing the distance or better say time on YOur feet, and once You get to ceratin stage, that we can talk marathon.

The initial stage should look like this :

regular weekly schedule, where You do :
1 x 90 minutes run
1 x 60 minutes run
1 x 40 minutes run
1 run, where the session is done as long intervals witrh rest in between, typical example could be 3 x 12 minutes

and at least 2 very slow recovery jogging of about 30 minutes.

If You can handle this week by week for at least 12 weeks, than in my view You are ready to start marathon training.

At the beggining as You are bnow, I would suggest to try to do 90 minutes session as a pure walk, just go out and walk for 90 minutes and each week try to walk bit faster.

60 minutes session I would suggest to do mainly as walk, but include in it few slow jogg section, as You feel regardless of distance or minutes of the run, just include here and there some jogging in it.

40 minutes run try to build into this try tio run for 40 minurtes, take walk breaks if You need to, but this should be Your first continuos run achieved and practiced every week, do not run it too fast.

Forgot the long intervals for the moment

Do the recovery joggs as a recovery slow walks initialy, always day after running session.

good luck

Thanks Rudy. Now that the weather is warming up a bit it's getting easier to get up earlier. I walk very fast (except fo rwhen I have just run my longest distance) anyhow and will start with a 90 minute walk on Monday.  :yahh:

It's a great idea to do different times each day. Thank you. I'll make a shedule tomorrow.

awwwwwwwww no marathon in 18 weeks for me! I checked out the website that you posted earlier with the chi running thread. Some good information there. Thanks for posting it.

xoxoxox

Jennie You can make GC marathon (1st jully sunday) a goal next year, its plenty of time,
but You need to start now with the serious stuff

Thanks for posting that information Rudolf, I found it really helpful. I am also starting out, so it is good to have some goals to aim for.  

Rudolf are you able to split the sessions into 30minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the afternoon to make upa 60 minute session for the day?

we conned neet into doing some 15km+ runs..its all in the mind..lol! err, just another corner,,another hill, a few km for a cool down cos you want the muscles to flush out the lactic..wow we have run that far? gee!

it was last year i was doing 30second runs..lol! i had a bad crash and did some joint damage....yet knew i could run 30seconds a day for a few months and still maintain some running form..30seconds didnt hurt and raw kept me lean..so after a few months i was doing some 5min runs then some 1 hour runs..then did a marathon in california..not my fastest marathon but not bad for minimal training..

who we hang out with helps..
my mates 9 year old is teaching me how to do forward flips on the tramp...
if we dont know any runners..join a running group..their is one in every large city..its free and we learn from others in person..get to study their foot placement etc..

i dont own a car and ride my bike everyday...so my lungs are always primed for adventure...this really helps when i do other sports..

the bike is a great way to do errands and its low impact. so you can really log some miles after a while..

but getting back to running..i signed up for a marathon a few days after i stopped eating refined sugar..thats how much energy i got from ditching it..and the only training i did before it was a 10km and a 20km and some 1km sprints each week. but i had a lot to prove..and thats the best fuel..

combine training with raw nutrition, hydration, rest, sleep etc and add that to a 'reason' for doing a marathon..nothing can stop us then..

do long walks..with some jog'n in between..pick a letterbox, tree, broken down porshce with flowers growing out of it..whatever..and jog to it..then walk..then jog...let the body ease into it..

that program rudi wrote..thats hardcore..and will get hardcore results..
i ran a 1;22;35 half marathon on 5km a week the 5 months before it..yet i was doing heaps of intense cycling..

Thanks guys! I didn't do the long run this morning. I thought I would try out the chi running on my 40 minute circuit. I really like it. I ran further than before with less effort from my lungs which was awesome! I found that landing on toes uses a completely different set of muscles and so alternated between landing on my heel and landing flat footed. Good stuff! Bill is going to buy me a new set of runners for my birthday which will help also.

I found it more difficult to maintain this style of running goind up and down hill (didja see that? I ran UPhill!  :yahh:) but with practice I'm sure I will get there.

I have used the just to the next tree/seat/bridge for the last couple of weeks and found it to be really effective.

I'm really exited by Rudy's program. Last night I was out with friends and I told my friend I had doubled my running this week... she was so happy for me! She asked 'well how long are you running for now?' to which I told her I didn't really know as it's on a path and I've not measured it... she then asked well how long timing wise? When I told her I was up to 'two whole minutes' she looked so stunned! It was a little mean of me to let her think I was going this great distance! We fell about the place laughing. She has just finished a course to become a personal trainer though and is keen to help me out which is great. Looking forward to my first 5 minute run. Anyhow I've written Rudy's program down and I'm going to walk those times but ran as much as I can during it if ya know what I mean!

That was my exitement for the day so far! Thanks for all the help and replies here guys. It's great to have this support.

Harley I'm looking forward to getting into biking as well. I have a bike which Bill lovingly washed for me yesterday. But at the moment my legs are still so weak! I'm hoping the running will strenthen my legs enough so that I can start riding and vary my training. Even  as a child I had less strength than all of my friends. I now look forward to becoming STRONG! Physically and mentally.

xoxoxox

NO

sorry Annette, that is completely different concept, 2 sessions in 1 day, that is touching into elite runners programm,
I do not recoment begginers doing 2 runs in 1 day, since it is about tendons-joints issue, once after run body goes into recovery mode, some tissue structures literally disintegrate and are not able to hold togeter, it is huge risk of injuries.

I do suggest minimum of 48 hours rest between runns, however very slow gentle jog or walk of about 20-30 minutes as a strict recovery only is good.

60 minutes session is specific because of the effect of continous 60 minutes workout, spliting into 2x30 is something completely different, and unless You targetting beating Kenyans, You better not touch it.

However if thats the time situation, than I suggest do 1 of the 30 minutes as run, and other 30 minutes as something completely different different like bike, or swimm or deep water run etc, or weight, bodyweights etc.

Cool, thanks for clarifying Rudolf.  I just thought it has been ages since I have run 60 minutes and if I broke it down into two sessions I would be able to do the 60 minutes.  I am probably upto the stage again of running 40 minutes.  No hurry, I will be back up to 60+ again soon enough.  Then I will try your elite program, hee hee.

Hi Jen,
Huge congrats on running & so consistently  and increasing as well!! Just thought I would mention that if you are still experiencing a sore upper back/ neck- it may be that you are hunching over, or up, or moving your upper body too much when you run. In that case, you might want to think about doing some core strenghtening exercises- strengthening your deep abs & maybe your lats. I'm saying this, because its what I experienced- the larger muscles were picking up the slack for the weaker ones & hence a lot of inbalance & pain..
I know some pilates exercises are helping me, as well as being conscious of where my shoulder blades are & specific back-lat- notsurewhichmuscle- exercises.

Just a thought... happy running!

Hi Shell's. Thanks for your post. You are the third person to tell me about core strength today. I'm going to start the five tibetans again. I loved them when I started and then I started out side and landed on one of my dogs errrr deposits! I should have just cleaned up the backyard and started again or at least done them inside but I lost it a bit. This lets me know that I need to go back and do them again!

xoxoxo

atta girl Jen....your core strength will def improve with the 5t's....its only 5-6 mins out of your day ...too easy..and youll have abs in no time,lol..

look out for the doggie do's..he he

trampolining is another really good one,for core strength,also for you pelvic floor muscles its a beauty...

Yup the 5 tibetans. Forgot all about them after I posted! Am printing them out again now. This morning I didn't run at all. I did a loooooooong walk with my daughter who did a lot of running! I'm glad I didn't because the muscles on the front outside of my right leg on the bottom 1/4 of my leg are sore. I dunno why. I just got out of bed limping! They'll be ok in a day or two. I also recalled what Rudy said about not running daily at first as the body needs to gather strength.

So tomorrow I'll run again. Cheers!

xoxoxo

i went from getting picked last in school team sports to representing australia in ultra endurance cycling....

slow and steady wins the race
every step counts, at every pace
hardest part is getting out of bed
and then the rest is just in our head
get out the door, start off slow
after time we warm up, and then its go, go, go!

Ummmmm thanks Harl's! Motivation is the key to life hey!

My leg is so sore! *pout* It means no running tomorrow I guess but Bill wants to go riding tomorrow morning in the morning so I will see how I go with that instead.

Poor leg! Here's a pic. I hope it's not shin splints. It felt great before I went to bed! Can you sleep wrong on an ankle like you can a neck! LOL... Laughter. The best medicine!  :yahh:


xoxoxo

Jennie it could be lots of thing
main idea is not to try to push trough pain.
try water recovery - changing cold and hot - get 2 backets or some similar thingy, fill 1 with cold water and 1 with the hotest water You can tolerate and keep changing - stick the foot in 1 let it freeze, than stick in the hot and let in unfreeze and warm properly, repeat many times, best to sit on the chair, so there is no weight on it while doing this.

Use this time for doing lots of core exercises on the floor lay on the back, on the tummy and on the side and do lots of leg rises - front, back, sides etc.
than on the back bend the knees and keep moving the legs from 1 side to other like a wippers touch the floor on 1 side than other be carefull with lower back, monitor the feeling. do it with feet on the ground and bend knees, that with fet on the ground and knees close to the body, spread the arms to side to keep the upper back stable.

and work the upper body body and arms as well during nonrunning period.

Thanks Rudy and good morning! I have stayed at home this morning. My poor leg is so damned sore that I cannot move my foot up or down without wincing! Strange that there is no swelling at all.  Ouch. Thank you for the exercises you have offered.  :yahh:

I'll let you know how I go! Thanks again.

xoxoxox

good morning Jennie,

can You try this experiment - get Your leg up for at least 15 minutes :

either do the head stand or shoulder stand, or simly lay on Your back, press Your bum against the wall and leant the legs against the wall so You are at 90 degrees,
You can read in this position (my favorite),

after 15 minutes You should get some feedback from the leg change of the feeling change of teh pain etc.
depending on what You will experience, we can start guessing what it can be, after You done (You can stay lonegfr than 15 minutes if You wish, lower the legs down very slowly, stay horizontal for few minutes before getting up,
and than lets see what has changed or not.

good luck

Hullo Rudy. I'm sorry I didn't get back to this thread until now. I would have liked to have tried that. My leg is now better enough that I could do a brisk walk this morning of about 40 minutes.

Twice during this walk I tried the jogging (chi style) and managed about 20 steps only before I got pain right in the joint but hey! At least I got to exercise today. I am so looking forward to increasing my running. I'm sooooo looking forward to getting some runners. My ones are admittedly not the very best. The are Nike's and cost a fortune and I was fitted at a shoe shop who seemed like they knew what they were doing but I've had them for 6 years approx and they are had it! new runners here I come! LOL.

I'm also going to see a friend of mine who is a massage therapist and specialises in sports massage this week. Hopefully he will have some answers for me.

xoxoxox

Jennie I suggest You seriously consider the NIKE FREE shoes
and start building the walking and running legs and feet in them.

Hiya Rudy, You are the third person to tell me about them in 8 days. They are a good looking shoe but I am worried about my high arches. I have abnormally high arches (one of my friends asked if she could get married under my foot!) and I'm worried about having no support. My mothers arches collapsed and she is in constant pain with her feet. I'm looking forward to going to find out about them. I was told this morning 'DO NOT run again until you get some good shoes'. So I won't. Because I'm a good girl really. I always do what I'm told.... *wink*

What do you think of the frees for people with high arches? And anyone else reading of course.

xoxoxo

Jennie,
the people telling You about good shoes first are probably people who believe in shoes doing the job instead of feet muscles and so are after overcusioned and oversupportive shoes, which will work as an artificial support, restrict the natural feet function, and make it all very week.
Runners who get used to running in high tech shoes will suffer in the future and will always run slow in those shoes.

3 decades ago no such shoes were available, people were running, walking and playing sports in Dunlop Volleys,
only later come racing flats type shoes (which I used as kid for track and road running).

Since the invention of hight tech running shoes population has runningh injuries, population is about 1 hour slower for the marathon distance etc.

in my view these are the option for running, and I use and alternate all of them :

- barefoot
- Dunlop Volleys
- racing flats ( I use Locco Bandidos)
- Nike Frees
- Aquasocks
- Five fingers rubber socks (but are expensive)
- special shoes for barefoot runners (basicaly just to protect from glass, rocks etc and hot road surface)

I got my Nike Frees from MEL Nike factory for $70-90

I took the insoles from Frees as well as from Volleys out, to minimize the cusioning and to get as close to the ground as posiible

the people telling YOu about proper running shoes, meaning those hight tech control shoes are using the same logic as the nathuropats prescribing YOu pills of minerals and vitamins and recomending red meat for iron and dairy for bones etc.

Thanks Rudy. I wonder if there is a factory outlet for Nike in Brisbane?

Anyone know? Or Gold Coast... Actually I'm coming to Melb for one day next week to see family. I can get a pair then. If someone could please pm me the addy of the MEL Nike factory? Actually, I'll call on my friend Google.

Thanks Rudy.  I'll let you know how I go!  :laugh:

xoxoxo

hi Jen, this is such a wonderful running thread. I hope that your leg is feeling better. I hope you get as much joy and pleasure out of your running as I do-once your leg is sorted you will grow in stength, style speed and endurance-every day. Love ya jen.xx

Jennie MEL Nike factory is on Smith street, Collingwood (sorry for this suburb :laugh: )

I do not remeber the street number but it is in between Johnston street and Alexandra pde, so would be around 400.

very close to it on the same street is also Addidas factory and few other sport-outdoor shops.

Jennie go for the running model 5.0, or the latest 3.0,

the crosstrainers 7.0 are no good for running

the 5.0 model should have 2 different pairs of insoles one marked as 5.0 the other marked 4.5 - could be stolen from the box so ask the staff for it.

lower number means less cushioning and closer to barefoot.

I think the size numbering is slightly different to other manufacturers so make sure You have free toes

good luck with shopping.

this was posted a week ago on running forum for Sydney Nike factory:


Hi All,
Went out to the Nike factory outlet in Auburn yesterday (fully sick bro') and picked up a pair of free 7.0's (running, not training, although they had them there as well) for $100.

They had the 3.0's in a cool red for only $80. They had plenty of stock and a couple of colour options.

Sorry ladies, forgot to look in the women's aisle, but I'm pretty sure they had some.

No mens running shorts, but plenty of singlets for $35 less 30%.

I sure could use the help with Style! I have none. Heheheh.

Rudy it's amazing what can change in 24 hours. I am now not going to Melbourne. The flight times are making things difficult. I do hope to go in a month or so though. I would love to catch up with the families.

*Pouts over missing out on cheap runners*

xoxoxo

Hi Jennie,

I forgot 1` info - the most succesfull flat racing shoes, serving all runners very well for longer than half a century are the model called KT26, made by Dunlop and available in all supermarkets, Kmarts, BigW, Targets etc
price $29-39, lots of runners are using them to run ultras - meaning 100 miles + 160 kms and more and using them on roads as well as trials - running in mountains.

That is the model of shoes I used as kid and teenager for my running and walking the 50k-100k mountains,
I have few pairs, but unfortunately they just somehow do not fit my feet, giving me the wrong pressure points,
there are few models of KT26 available with different tops and different design of the bottom layer - road and trails etc, however beware that all other shoes KT with different numbers are just no good, they are heavy and high copying teh high tech in cheapo versions.

Try KT26 and see what You reckon

good luck

Hey Rudy, You are being so mega helpful and kind. Thank you for the advice and time you are giving. I really am very grateful.

xoxoxo

Well I went to the factory and got there 15 minutes before closing. I got myself a pair of frees and a bit of a consult from the guy working there. When I told him what I felt and showed him the injury area he said that I had probably injured some ligament. I've just looked it up and found a diagram and can tell you that it's the posterior talofibular ligament. It sounds familiar with what he said and on the pic I saw it seems to match what is hurting. He said not to run for at least another 8 weeks to give the ankle time to heal. Damn.

I ran this morning but only for about 20 paces just to see how I would go and it's sore tonight. Damn damn damn.

So peoples, while I can't run (he didn't even want me to walk a lot) how can I strengthen my ankles. I really like yoga so if someone knows any good yoga ankle exercises I will love them forever and be their best friend.

I really do need to walk daily or at least every other day because I have a dog... should I strap my ankle while walking?

xoxoxo

Hi Jennie,
dogs love if they can run fast and are not limited by their owners  :laugh:

This morning I saw the guy I know, riding a bike in a public reserve where I run, and he was exercising his young dog, looks like they both had great time racing each other.

yoga actualy uses lots of siting on the heel - with flexed ankles, which will get flexibility but not the strenght.

the one exercise from yoaga is balancing positions on 1 leg, however You can do this in your life - just using Hraleys philosophy, while washing the dishes, cooking and uncooking, doing it on 1 leg, and I used to do it a lot.

buils up those stability tendons and muscles.

specificaly for ankles - just sit with legs straight in fron of you - TV armachair is good - and keep moving the feet - towards You and than completely away ankle fully streched.

You can build up to 1H of this movement, but only if it is not doing any pain, if there is pain, than do just part movement which is pain free.

another one is ankle rotation - in both directions - passive - when the hand is rotating it, and active when the feet are moving on their own - which is better.

then there is the classic for injured runner - deep water running - great tp build all legs muscles, abs and but  :laugh:, using some floatation device and be in deep enough not to touch the pool ground.

and than the more challenging is to do swimming drills with legs only- holding to the board, and make it more challenging use the flippers.

You have to experiment which is not causing the pain as You do not wanna keep trearing up every day.

You can also visualize healthy strong fit feet and ankles ( do not use words as pain free, as this is bringing the pain energy), and creating this picture will heal the leg, intuitively YOu will know what to do, what exercises, when to rest what nutrients etc. Just trust Yourself.

Thanks for that long ago post Rudy. I did read it but got distracted and forgot to reply to you. My apologies.




I'm running again. I ran yesterday and ended up with really sore leg muscles late. Same leg... grrrr. was so sad. But this morning when I got out of bed I thought Dammit, I'll never get anywhere if I keep waiting to be pain free after every workout.

So I'm happy to report that I ran again today. Not much. For whatever reason I have lost a lot of fitness. I was so out of breath. I could only run for less than  a quarter of what I could before my ankle protested but I felt so wonderful! It was awesome. Very freeing.

I think that I was not doing the running right yesterday. Today I did something slightly different and really noticed the difference. I am still getting used to landing on the front foot. Yesterday I was landing hard, today I really made an effort to land more gently and really pushed myself off with the back foot too. Much better. I went a little faster but I was a lot more comfortable this way. I think I am finding my own style!  :laugh: Some may call it dodgy but whatever. Until I can get some coaching I need to just try and work things out on my own...

My leg is sore again this afternoon but not like yesterday. I think I might just have to get my little running feet back on and go running again tomorrow! Yee har!

xoxoxo

good for you,and your new mind set...go for it gal...
are you running heel then toe?-and no i dont mean dancing the polka,you caarrrrrazy woman...tee hee hee

I'm confused about the way to position your foot... my Mum took belly dance classes last year and was told that we should actually walk flat footed, as this is better for feet, posture etc... but does this apply to running?

Hullo boodiful ladeeeeez. No running today. I woke up feeling physically tired still so walked. I'm missing my light eating! LOL. I don't mind the gourmet as you well know but I must be eating 20 different ingredients per night trying to find what the kids will eat and it's taking a toll right now. Beside the point!

Neet, no I was doing that landing heel first? That's what you mean yeah? But with both my mothers and fathers side having a very bad history of knee problems I wanted something lower in impact. I ran into rawjack at the markets one Sunday and he gave me a few tips on running. (He is gorgeous btw...mmmm.) and so I've been doing toe first.

I do find it easier on the body but at first was failing to push off with the back leg. I was just allowing myself to fall into step. It uses different muscles too. Might have to catch up with Jack again to make sure I'm doing it alright! LOL.  And he can talk to Bill too!

Freedom, sorry babes, still learning.

xoxoxo

Hi everyone
Just a quick post. Runners, and in particular to Jennies last post, may i suggest the following:
Relax your body, totally relax it. Body sense your body, head to toe. Feel your total contact with the ground, through relaxed feet. Totally relaxed feet. Loose feet, loose shoes.
No muscles should be tense in your entire body.
Fell and remember this feeling. This is how you should feel when running.
Check to see that your body is aligned, one straight column.
Engaging your core muscles to level your pelvis. Tilt from the ankles, (not from the waist) and let yourself fall forward.
This is how you should run.
Let your legs take small steps, fall underneath your body. Land on mid foot, not on the heels. If your landing on your heels, your stride is to long. Shorten your stride. let your feet fall underneath you. Use the pull of gravity, and do not opose the upcoming force (the road).
Do not push of with your foot. Let the natural movement of falling forward as you lean from the ankles power you along. Lift your heels in a natural, non forced way behind you. Remember to keep leaning from the ankles.
Keep those core muscles engage, pelvis level. The core muscles should be the only muscles engaged.
Remember, all other muscles are relaxed. Have your arms/hands as someone said previously, relaxed. Keep them at a 90 degree angle, reaching back with your elbows behind you. Do not let your arms cross your body.
 Your cadence (of your arms and legs) should be, for a beginner, at 85 foot strikes/minute (one side counting), no more. Take it easy. Relax.
Keep your body movements going forward. linear. No bouncing up and down, as someone rightly said.
Did i mention keeping the whole body relaxed? Yes, even those shoulders, upper body, as loose as a rag doll...

Let me know how it goes... Gradual progress... oh, and enjoy!
Yours in Chi
J-R :yahh:

Hey! Look who's dropped by my running space! Welcome to my world J-R. Thanks for the advice.

Bending from the ankles not the waist stood out for me. I'm not sure where I've been bending from.

I'll let you know how I go.

xoxoxo

Yep ... ChiRunning helped me immensely.  I have the book and the DVD - both full of good info.   :ohyeah:

Hello fellow ChiRunner! (and ChiWalkers).
 Good to know that there are some of out there! :yahh:

also very similar is pose method but analized a bit more check out posetech.com it helps you pick shoes,, both styles are recommended by vibramfivefingers.com but these vibram shoes i found are not enough on rocky sharp terrain ouch

May i just say that Pose running is slightly different in fact, and in my view, less natural. A lot of finer differences. However, i don't want to be controversial over this subject, its just my experience, having run and studied the two methods... but yeah, sure beats conventional/power running...  -_-

Hey Michaela, where did you get the book and DVD from?  I love running, and have a go now and then, but my knees really start to hurt.  I really miss it, and it changes my body shape instantly.

HI Sanghama, I'm hoping that we will have them instore mid Jan.  :yahh:

Running went well this morning. I did five short bursts, stopping to get my breath back each time. As soon as I found my breath I was off and running again. I did have a moment for the first couple of spurts. It kind of went like this:

Ok, leaning from ankles... check. Arms at 90 degrees... check. Arms uncrossed....check. Breathing Doh! Far out. Then the next run was

Breathing... check. Leaning from ankles... check. Arms at 90 degrees... check. Arms uncrossed....check. Breathing Doh!

It's a complicated bizzo this running. After that I thought to myself, "self, no one is judging. This is not a contest just freaking DO IT!" And I did. Fluidly. Could no longer hear my feet hitting the ground... as much! Ran longer, remembered to breath!

I feel so ALIVE!!!!  :yahh:  :yahh:  :yahh:  :yahh:  :yahh:

xoxoxox

Jennie
take one focus at a time. Concentrate just on corect body posture, (straight line between the ankles, hip bone and shoulders) and then in the running , just apply  on focus at a time; all muscles relaxed, but core muscles engaged; then, small baby steps at 85 foot strikes. Then go onto another focus; mid foot strike, then after a while another; core muscles engaged, levelled pelvis (again, v.important...), etc, etc, etc... take it slowly, take one focus at a time either for each run, or for a minute during each run, or even two focuses during each run, a minute at a time. See how it goes. Oh, don't forget to breath...and enjoy it all, dont let all this stress you. If it does, stop relax, breath, relax, and if you feel like it, start again, or apply it walking...
keep at it Jen, we'll make a ChiRunner out of you!
Yours in Chi
J-R

Hullo Coach! Thanks for your words of wisdom. I am really looking forward to getting the book and dvd as I am very visual!

One step at a time eh... oh! I did a pun... LOL

xoxox

Your welcome, yep, one step at a time, gradual progress...
Perservere and you will build a solid base...
the book and dvd are great pointers as well, so look out in the post!
yours in chi
J-R :yahh:

cool...and welcome coachjr....im guessing you really are a coach? or have you just done lots of research on sport and fitness??

i like to absorb more knowledge on athletic pursuits where i can.....

warm welcome to you! :mellow:

Hi Raw green godess
 thank you for your post. Yes, i am a certified coach. Certified United Sates Of America triathlon coach, level one standard, Certified ChiRunning and ChiWalking instructor, ex-army qualified P.T.I, and certiifed bike fitter and certified Computrainer coach. I also have qualifications in teaching junior level rugby, (from my earlier crazy days...)in France.
I have just moved back home to Australia after years in the USA and Europe, where i coached part time.
I am a endurance runner since the age of 16, (now am 44), and also a triathlete and cyclist competing in national level competitions (except for this year i am taking off)
I also passionatly study sports nutrition, (more so the natural side of this minefield called "sports nutrition") and encourage athletes to adopt a raw food way of living, as well as understanding the Chi, inner energy inside of us all, to help us better understand and appreciate our body's natural ability's. This i apply in my coaching.
I favor alternative medecine, naturapathy and a whole lot more...
I passionatly believe that raw food / vegan is the most natural and best way to go for real nutrition, in life and in sport competition of all levels.
I study sports physiology and plan to find a "less conventional" path concerning this subject in my research and experience.
So, in a nutshell, thats me.
thank you for your warm welcome.
Yours in Chi
J-R :yahh:

Hi J-R,

I've loved reading your posts, thank you very much :)

I do interval training, if you could call it that LOL.  I deliver junk mail and try to run as much as I can depending on the hills (and there are plenty) and how much weight I have in my shoulder bag.  And I'm 51 years old.  Are you scared yet? rofl

I mostly walk up the hills with a full bag, starting usually around 15 kgs in weight and as I drop off junk in letterboxes along the way the load gets lighter and then I reach the flat or downhill parts and start to jog between letterboxes.  My bag is home made and I've designed it so the weight is distributed as evenly as possible on both shoulders, even though the bag actually hangs on my right.

I continue this, loading up the bag 6 times along the way, for 6 kms twice per week.  At the moment I'm running, on good days, about 30% of that distance and want to build that higher, but the weight of the bag really does slow me down a lot at the moment.  Once the post-Christmas sales are over I'm sure it will be lighter.

I do have to lean sideways to the left very slightly because of the carry bag.  I'm running across grass and driveways mostly, with a little road running back to the car.  If you have any advice at all on my running technique and/or how to build my performance I'd be very grateful.

Just thought a photo would help you and you can see the 2 shoulder straps in this one - they have a strap across the back behind my neck which keeps them from falling off my right shoulder, but are not restrictive in any way.  (Fly net so I can huff and puff without swallowing anything non-vegan, gloves for the newsprint, ankle skirts to keep the lawn prickles out of my shoes.  I'm a well protected young lady rofl)

(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z33/yamlwoz/IMG_5472.jpg)

Thank you so much!
May

May, those ankle skirts are to DIE for! they are gorgeous. Your own brand I presume? You just can't get playful stuff like that anywhere. I wouldn't mind a pair of those myself.

Thanks for sharing a little about yourself JR. I see great things ahead!

xoxoxo

Hi Jen :)

Yeah, I made them.  They are Dora the Explorer fabric left over from the dress that I made for Georgia.  Gotta laugh!!!  David says 'how embarrassing!' but it's better than getting prickles in my shoes!!!  I've had prickles a few times and am still wearing the burst blister that one caused.

If you're dinkum about wanting a pair I can certainly make you a set - what colour is your fancy?  They are just elasticated around the top and then hang over your shoes - almost 100% safety record so far.  Actually, I have some lovely fabric with strawberry leaves/flowers/berries on to make a dress so if I extract my digit and make the dress I'll have left over strawberry fabric, would you like that?

Love and Joy
May

That would be better than fabulous! I'll post a pic with me wearing them. Sheesh. This could be a business for you May. Non khaki garden wear for fun lovin', fabbo, down to earth girlie girls! LOL.

Thank you very much.

xoxox

Done! :wub: :rose:

Oh and I didn't say... except that the bag was empty, we went to vote with me dressed EXACTLY like that, cos the pic was taken on voting day :ohyeah:

Hello May
thank you for enjoying my inputs. Thats nice.
Yes, help / advice, absolutely. Scared, no!
Oh, i think that you meant 51 years young !

Ok, hills, whether you are running, or walking them at a fast pace, it is good to try ascending the hills in a different manner than you may be used to. Scared yet? you will be...

I imagine that you have deliveries to do every few meters, going up hills to different mail boxes.
I imagine that, currently you walk or/and run up the hills face forward.
Ok lets stop going up hills like that now... I'll explain...

If you put yourself at a 45 degree to the hill, (i guess that you are familiar with the ChiRunning posture?), and if your arms are free, or at least one of them, have the arm that is on the downside of the hill at leat at 90 degrees bent, but r.e.l.a.x.e.d....
Taking a smaller stride than you may be used to and leaning into the hill, walk/run up the hill changing sides of the 45 degree each five or six steps, or between mail boxes, driveways etc. Here you will be using your practically unused lateral muscles in your legs to help you up the hill. However, remember that arm(s) we mentioned, that as well will get you up the hill.... sounds strange but yes,  use your free arm to get up the hill. Yes, your arm...

Have your downside arm dictate the cadence of your progression, and have it swinging linear with the hill direction, at the same cadence of the SMALL STEPS that you are taking. But also at the same time as linear, it is in this case that we will have the downside arm swinging (not pumping) accross the body.

The steps; small steps as i mentioned, and dont over reach your stride.
Have, obviously the feet in the same direction as your 45 degree angle, but just coming down in front of each other, not overlapping as in the book (this is a newer, more effective foot step technique just developped by Danny this year). Sounds complicated huh? No, just practise a little, without the bag and you'll see how so logic it is.
This way, your other muscles  (quads etc) arent over worked.
 Also maybe you could start with the advise above i offered Jennie, posture, relaxed muscles, lean from the ankles, etc...

Only thing that concerns me is that heavy bag. Be carful it is not to heavy or you cause unwanted tension in the houlders, neck etc... better to go refill it and start again, no? Anyway, i digress....

So i reckon, start off chiwalking, short strides, lead with the upper body, not the legs, nor hips, and as it gets lighter, run, 1st gear, still short steps/stride, and on the hills, whether you walk or run,  45 degree angle changing sides regulary, 5 or 6 steps or between mail boxes, driveways, etc...

I hope i have helped a little. If not please let me know and i'll try to explain it a little better...
Keep up the great work, and enjoy life to its fullest!

Yours in Chi
best wishes
J-R :yahh:

awesome J-R,thank you so much for sharing some of yourself,and your knowledge,that really rocks...you know you will be inundated with questions now,lol....

Maysie you are gorgeous!

You are more than welcome.
It is by sharing our knowledge and experiences and by listening to others, that we as people, and our world can become better, for everyone...
Yours in Chi
J-R

oh yeh....thats a rap.....

I run exactly as you describe CouchJr, so I was pleased about that. Thanks for taking the time.

Just want to add for others who are reading about this style of running - I am overweight at the moment and still found myself able to run when I adopted this style. So no matter what your size or shape, if you want to run, give it a go.

Looking forward to the book being in the shop Jen!

Me too! Yaaaaaaaay!

xoxoxox

Hi Coach :)

Wow.  OK.  Radical.  And I love radical, so I'm all yours LOL.

I have a walk ahead of me tomorrow and wouldn't you know it, it's dead flat in that direction but I will most certainly be trying this out the first chance I get during my run on Saturday.  In fact my first section's hill can be split into 2 so that the top of it has only 7 bundles of junk (and decreasing) in my bag.  You're on!

It sounds, on paper, as if I'm going to trip over my own feet, but I got a clear picture from your explanation, thank you very much.  No mean task to explain something like that!!!

I'll write back on Sunday and let you know how I went as Saturday is going to be pretty full.

> Oh, i think that you meant 51 years young !

Hehehe, yeah, I think so :)

> Scared yet? you will be...

Well, pretty darned curious at that point, yes rofl  I certainly didn't take it in on the first read through.

> I imagine that you have deliveries to do every few meters, going up hills to different mail boxes.

Yes indeed.  Normal suburban housing with a few duplexes thrown in, usually at the top of the hills/cul de sacs.  My area is circled by a road with no houses on it but there are 6 groups of cul de sacs coming off this circle.  The centre of the circle is a hill and all of the cul de sacs climb it - some steeper than others.

I have had to work on the relaxation bit already as I was getting very stiff shoulders and neck, so now I have to carry that skill downwards as well I'd say.  I do have one arm free, or just holding one bundle in that hand and up to 4 bundles in the crook of the other arm.  They are in bundles of 5 houses worth in the bag.

When I was into weight training I always used to turn my toes in/centre/out for the leg extension machine, so I like what you've told me; this is going to achieve the same results :yahh:

I *think* I do lean from the ankles already - hubby used to say I ran all hunched up when we first began this, and now he tells me I look good (straight and tall) while running.  I will ask him to give me updates - there's not usually anything younger or slimmer around to take his attention off me when we get to our meeting places LOL

> Only thing that concerns me is that heavy bag. Be carful it is not to heavy or you cause unwanted tension in the houlders, neck etc... better to go refill it and start again, no?

We're fairly stuck in the way we do it now because of where we are able to park the car, but on days it's extra heavy I walk as slowly as I need until it starts to empty a bit.  Or carry as many bundles as I can in one arm.

> Keep up the great work, and enjoy life to its fullest!

Oh yeah!!!!  Thank you so much!!!

Love and Joy
May

May
your welcome, i 'll look out for your progress and questions, queries...
Just one thing though, unless i misunderstood, please dont point your toes , nor feet inwards. Keep them straight in the direction you are facing, so at a 45 degree, they'll be facing...... yep you got it, 45 degrees as well. Running, walking forward, they'll be facing.... yep forwards, dead straight on, like a train on its tracks....
And most important, keep those feet and toes relaxed, no clamping onto your shoes with the toes, everything relaxed , limp as a rag doll...

Dragonfly... exactly! Nice to read that you run this way. I bet that you feel good everytime you do huh?
Running, exercise is for everybody, i am pleased to read your post.
Its all about making a choice everybody, a choice to exercise physically your body and exercise physically your mind, and spirit.
 
Everyone ! Go run, walk, see all the ideas you come up with, the fresh sensation and relaxed mindful expereince that you come back with. Nature intended us to run, to walk, thats why it is the best and most reachable exercise ever! Let your Chi flow!

Yours in Chi
J-R :yahh:

No it's OK, I used to turn my toes on the leg extension machine so that my outer and inner quads got exercised also.  No intention of doing it whilst running ;)

Rag doll eh?  Hubby will be impressed with you!!!

Hi Coach,

We did the junk run this morning and it was great fun as there were only 8 thin catalogues per house, which stunned us this close to Christmas.  We ran and we ran - I'd estimate we ran 80 - 85% of the whole 6kms each and it felt fantastic.  I was running about 10 houses and then walking 1 or 2 and then running again, it was so amazing.

The heaviest my bag was at any stage was 5 kgs, compared to the 15 kgs of Tuesday, so you can see why it made such a huge difference.  I had not fully realised quite how much difference that weight made to my performance.  Interesting, considering I used to carry 30 kgs extra around with me all the time LOL

Your uphill running technique was amazing, and made such a difference.  Because of the weight of the bag I ran all but 1 of the hills (which I power walked) towards the end and it felt so good.  I did not fear tripping over my feet as I'd thought I would either!  It felt more natural with the right leg higher up the hill than when I turned so the left was higher, but that will come with more practice.

Strangely, I also became conscious that I am crossing my body with my free arm instead of pumping it in the direction I want to go.  Changing that helped a lot too.

I'll explain it all to David in due course so he can do it too.  He even runs most of the steepest hill, which I didn't today.  But even he will tell you that my side of that street is more gradual to start and then has a killer steep ending.

Thank you so much for your help!!!  It was great fun :yahh: :ohyeah:

Love and Joy
May

Well done May. I was all set for my walk this morning... had my gear all ready by the bed and guess what? I woke up and it was 8am! Noooooooooooo. Slept in today of all days. Sheesh.

You are going great guns May. You have worked so hard and it's paying off. It's been wonderful to see you grow and change. Can you believe how tired you look in your before shots? You look so vibrant now... it's hard to believe that you are the same woman!

xoxoxox

Good morning May
well that is great news to hear, i am so very pleased!
Yes everybody has a favoured side on the hills, mine is my left, but i keep working on my left side that little more to get it the samea my right uphill side!
Concerning your free "downside" arm, practise having it freely swinging, (not pumping), in in a way that it is slightly exaggerated, as if you are trying to reach the sky with th efist/hand . But it should  naturally, with practise and time. On hills, the arm(s) are 75% of the momentum that get you uphill in  the ChiRunning technique.
I am so very glad that you was able to feel that carrying a lighter sack made it easier for you. This is a VERY important point. With the speed/time you gain with a lighter sack, any time spent refilling the sack will be negligible. Just think about your poor back and the weight of the junk mail that you carry. Weigh up the consequesnces: sore back + pulled back muscles+dystrophy a cause of a heavy sack versus more running back and forth because of a lighter sack. For me, i'd chose the second option! I know that you have to make a living, but geez, those multi billion/trillion  multi national companies won't care about your back... So adopt  this new method, you'll run more, and get fitter, a great option!
Well May, i am so very pleased that i could help you. Please keep me up to date.
In the meantime, great health to you, and let your chi flow!


Hey Jen, a sleep in is our body's way of telling us it need recovery, from physically as well as mentally over tasking our lifes... Theres always tomorrow for a run, for a walk!
yours in Chi

J-R

Hi CoachJR,

Just wondering if you have any plans to hold ChiRunning clinics in WA in the future?  (Oh please say yes, oh please, please, pleeeeease!!!!)


Thanks,
Michaela

Dear Michaela,
Yes, i would absolutely love to return to my home state W.A and hold a ChiRunning clinic. Without wishing to advertise on Jennies great forum (please excuse this Jennie and others if mentioning this offends the ethics of the forum rules, and i understand totally...i will pay advertising space!) ,  if there was enough interested then absolutely!
Please go to my website take a look, and email me if you think it could be possible. (whilst i was over there last, no one had ever heard of ChiRunning and looked at me weird when i explained it... :()!
yours in Chi
J-R

oh i would attend,i adore running,and find it feels really natural to me....

I think JR is going to have to do an Aussie tour... like Bon Jovi! But better...

xoxoxo

Now theres a great idea! I'll have to get myself a portable blender/mixer and juicer......

Jen
hows your running progress coming along this week? :yahh:
J-R

BAckwards Coach. Got flu and then errrr runs? LOL. I'm going out tomorrow though. My energy has started to come back and I need to get out of the office. Thanks for asking.

Hows your running been this week? Actually, after doing all the running you have, do you still feel you are improving your style all the time?

xoxoxo

Well Jen, i do hope that you get back on track, health wise!
 
Yes, i make a point of getting out and running and always take a focus (or two) to practise on... Today it was cadence and light feet...
 If i cant in the morning i get out sometime during the day. And when i am pushed for time, i go for a shorter run, and concentrate more on technique.There is always someting to improve in the goal of great running form. The more you concentrate on each focus, the better you become, theres always someting to pick up on after nearly three years of running this way!
It makes every run interesting and with an added purpose/focus in addition to the "physical focus" of the run (intervals, tempo, etc...).
Having run since the age of 16 the "traditional power" way, i no longer feel it natural to run that way, and sometimes just for fun, i  run the "old" way for a few hundred meters to see how it feels! It is so weird! How did i run like that before?????

Enjoy your run tomorrow. Remember; relaxed muscles, light feet, leaaaan...
yours in Chi
J-R

Coach, thank you for your answer!  :laugh:

What would you say the most important thing about running is? Physically I mean or the answer could be to be passionate about running or passionate about the reason behind running. To me, this is the most important thing. However I don't want to be thinking that in 20 years time in hospital waiting for a knee replacement like my dear ole daddyo!

Originally I thought it would be breathing, now I'm thinking that it would have to be a cross between leaning and relaxing.

And what's the most interesting question, in a good way... not like the Chinese curse kind of interesting, question you have ever been asked about running? I hope you know... saves me having to think of something interesting! LOL.

xoxoxo

Wow! thats a question!
Many people run for many different reasons. I started runnng, (and no other than my wife knows this...), because as a kid becuase my P.T teacher at school said i was useless at everything... I knew i wasn't and proved it by finishing third in the cross country run that year. He still said i was useless, but i forgive his ignorance...now.
So as i knew that this was good to run, i kept running, and running, i enjoyed, it gave me purpose and discipline.The rest is history, i ran internatinally for the army for a while, and had a great time... It was a story of continually proving myself as a young man, that was my motivation.

Now my wife who i met 2 years ago, bought me around to realizing  that i don't have to prove myself anymore... Just before meeting her, i started discovering ChiRuning, and found a more mindful way of running, in many different senses...
So ones reason or important thing about running can be one reason, and later develop, evolve into something else. But above all it is the sensation of exercising, keeping the body healthy by doing the most easiest natural sport, being outside, running in all weathers, thinking, coming up with ideas for ones business, projects, or just enjoying the "feeling"

Let me assure you Jen, running the Chirunning way will never have you ending up with a hip or joint replacement...that is the beauty of ChiRunning, impact free, injury free, working with the forces of nature, not against them...

Most interesting thing i have been asked about running???? all questions i get asked are interesting as each person that asks them needs an answer as that question is important to them, that what counts, helping, guiding answering peoples demands, question about running, cycling, whatever.
Just thinking again on that, i think that your question,"whats the most interesting question..." that bought out my rather long above reply has been the most interesting question asked... i  have never revealed that to anyone other than my wife, so it was a interesting question in itself, thanks for asking!
Yours in Chi
J-R

You're welcome JR. You know, it seems to me that many great people in history have been driven by someone who has said something thoughtless or just outright mean to them in their childhood. Look at where you are now! Thank you for telling us about that.

I'm so looking forward to meeting you and swapping information with you as well. And your wife too!

xoxoxox

Coach, I meant to reply sooner about your possible Perth trip.  I would participate if it wasn't too far from where I live, and if the cost was not prohibitive.  We're trying to achieve a financial goal at the moment, so most of our funds are headed in that direction for a few more months yet.

I used your hill running technique again today and then switched to the old way nearer the top.  Incredible how quickly I tired as soon as I faced upwards.  I still haven't gathered my courage to explain it to David though lol

Jen, you get to meet *all* the great people.  It's not fair :(  Hehehe.  Go on, I don't begrudge you anything at all; you work hard for it.

Love and Joy
May

I've not met you yet my dear! Or Freedom, Or RNJen, or Rachan, or... or... or...

xoxoxo

on that note Jennie,cos i was so ill and lethargic from around age 4...which got progressively worse,and had more days off than on at school....i remember the last words said to me,from my high school English teacher,oh take care Janita....i will watch out avidly to see if you turn into an athlete...and laughed out loud at me....I remember smiling and saying,well stranger things have happened.....at the time it hurt though,but damned if i was going to show her that.....

would love to see her again...lol...

And when i was in grade 4....i was squatting down tying my shoes,and a teacher made a comment about the size of my butt....i was a little fat girl....and those words never seem to leave....they motivate me,to run an extra km,or ride,or row,or power walk,,or do an extra rep.....bugger em.....

thanks for sharing Coach.....

Jennie you make me laugh,like bon jovi only better,lol!

When I was at high school I had one teacher I trusted. I went to see him one day because I wanted to die. I was looking for help. As I approached the office that he shared with other teachers I could hear his voice and the voice of one other teacher clearly. I should not have been at the school. It was way after the bell had rung. Funnily enough I hadn't even been at school that day. I was 'wagging'! Funny term that.

Anyhow, they were discussing me and the teacher that I was going to see said 'hmmmm, that Jennie B%^$%**(% is the school's largest candidate for dying of a drug overdose or ending up in jail that's for sure... total loser that one'.

Who lets these people be teachers anyway? I never went to another one of his classes and one day I saw him down the street and said "Hello" to me. I told him to errrrr. " 'insert bad word' off" just because I wanted to show him I wasn't a loser. LOL! Far out. Didn't really prove my point hey. Never mind.

He was a nice enough man.... just bad timing on my part.

Bon Jovi rocks! Yers, I'll bet if you saw that teacher now she would have a fat butt of her own and you could sashay past her swishing your own fabbo toned but and she would burn with jelousy. Then you could help her and she would be ever grateful! I'd love to go and help some of the people who have burned me. There are only two I can think of that I couldn't bear to go near.... one day perhaps. 

xoxoxox

Well this morning I awoke fit and happy and raring to go. I donned my running gear, walked until I felt ready and started running. I just couldn't get into it. I was leaning but could hear my feet hitting the ground and could feel the jarring throughout my entire body.

I ran three or four times but found the same thing each time. I just could not make it fluid today. Everything was jerky and not.... magical which sounds odd but when I ran the other day and it was so smooth that was how it felt. Magical.

When I got home though my headache was back and I took my temperature and I'm back up to 38 degrees celcius again so maybe my body was just telling me to take it easy and walk. I dunno. I'm a bit disheartened.

I was having funny conversations in my head trying to get myself thinking positively over the 'little voice' that often says otherwise. It kind of went like this

Little Voice (LV) You can't even RUN! You idiot.

New Improved Voice (NIV) I'm learning a new running technique and improving every day. I'm learning a new running technique and improving every day. I'm learning a new running technique and improving every day.

And so on. I like to repeat a positive affirmation three times in an attempt to drown out the negative thought that popped up all by itself.

Tomorrow is another day.

xoxoxxo

Jen
Everybody has off days... the big plus is that you donned your running gear and went out and tried. Considering that you have not had any ChiRunning lessons or maybe not read the book yet, i reckon that trying ChiRunning just with the advice you are getting and applying it, is a great step in the right direction.
What would be great is if you could just practise relaxing your body and thinking about enjoying running whilst relaxing your body. Keep your posture aligned, pelvis level, and have a slight lean from the ankles... small steps, small steps, so small that they fall under your body... that just think about picking up your heels, behind you, not allowing the knees to rise up... Heres a mantra to drown out little voice " knees down, heels up, knees down, heels up..."
Tomorrow is another new day.
Today, practise walking around with correct posture and picking your heels (or ankles), behind you...
If you have time. get in your best posture and practise, with both feet together leaning into a wall about 60 cms in front of you. Remember to put your hands up to catch yourself!!!... try for a few minutes to get used to that leeeaannnnn.... then later when you have mastered that, feet together, on alternative foot, do the same
have a great day and  Yes, you can do it, you can run! (coachs' voice)
Yours in Chi
J-R

Hi Coach! Long time no see...  There's a lot to remember here isn't there!

This morning I went for a run/walk. I awoke at 4:54am (how rude!) and rolled over to go back to sleep, what seemed like hours later I looked at the clock and only three minutes had passed! LOL. Time to get up.

So after my warm up I walked until I felt ready to run. And I ran in the most shocking fashion! So I stopped and then did it all over again. I did this stop start running for near on 20 minutes before I got it. And then I was in the magic running place again. Unfortunately I was so puffed out from all the stop starting that I couldn't go far but I enjoyed what I did!

I was getting mighty annoyed with myself too. I knew I knew how to do it, or at least what I think is it but I just couldn't get it. Funnily enough, it was when I had my rebel moment and went "well body, I'm just gonna run anyway and if you don't like it, you can injure yourself again" that it all fell into place.

Yeah, I showed THAT body whose da boss. Grrrrr. LOL.

xoxoxo

well done Jen...thats wonderous babe...great physical and mental progress

Good for you Jennie
Just back from the ChiRunning workshop in Melbourne, hence the absence!
Good to know that you overcome the barriers and let your body know that you CAN run, and how you want to run!
Keep it up, and remember that posture!
Best
Yours in Chi
J-R

its all in the mind...

just remember..
when we move..after we feel great! that satisfaction comes after completion..never before..

who knows?
could we see raw sensation running raw around the nation?

LOL! I don't think so Harl's. I'm shy....

Hey Coach, I had a good couple of runs while I was out yesterday. Just jumped straight into it. My posture is not the best so I'm having problems trying to have good posture while leaning and relaxing at the same time but it will happen. I"m looking forward to my run tomorrow morning!

xoxoxox

Hey Jen
good to hear that!
A lot of pp have difficulty in really relaxing the muscles when running.
It takes time and practise, practise, practise...
Just remember keep the straight body alignment, lean from the ankles, pelvis muscles engaged to keep the pelvis level whilst running (these are the only muscles engaged in ChiRunning), and the rest will follow...
But even if you don't manage that, if you are just enjoying your running, well thats what counts!

How is May getting on with those hills during her deliveries????

Merry festive season to everyone!

Yours in Chi
J-R

Thank JR! Level pelvis, enjoy running, relax Max, CAN DO!!!

What's the trick to running downhill. It's kinda hard to lean when pointing downwards. I can't wait to read this book and watch the dvd.

Have a fun Christmas won't you!

xoxoxo

Jen
Downhill running as with uphill running is kinda hard to explain, it needs good demo's.
However: Depending on the gradient on the downhill, let yourself go and let the pelvis rotate.
Don't let your feet land in front of you, midfoot, not on th eheels or forefoot.
Take smaller steps if you feel you are going too fast and adopt the grounding position as per T'ai Chi.
If the downhill is very steep, you can also zig-zag your way down the hill (a few paces left, a few paces right).
Look a few meters in front of you, never down at your feet....

Try and let me know!

Thanks and have a fun xmas as well, and everybody.

Yours in Chi
J-R

thanks on the down hill running tips Coach...very helpful

Your are welcome rawgreengodess!
hope that it works for you!
best
Yours in Chi
J-R

HI All, Thanks for the tips. I've had a bit of a breakthrough. There's a bit of a story to it but I had to get it down before I forgot it.

A couple of days ago I was chatting to Freelea and for whatever reason it came up that I didn't like exercising as it brought up memories from school. I was always the last one chosen and when the team failed it was my fault for being the slowest or missing the catch. I didn't think too much of the importance of these things at that stage.

This morning I decided I was going to run again. So on went the free's and the little shorties and off I went. Twenty paces in... sore ankle. Frustration!!! Then I remembered that until I started running recently that I had not ever had a sore ankle or knee. Even my back has been acting up when I've been running. I connected it to my memories of sport=pain and guess what? Soreness left my ankle left completely. My lungs stopped feeling so constricted and my style became fluid. I did lots of runs this morning and feel fantastic.

My legs are a little jelly-ish but I understand the style more now. The getting the ankles up and knees down rang in my mind and I ran with pure joy!

Also I got an MP3 player from Bill for Christmas and loaded some Wayne Dyer on it so once I was running I could take the focus off my thoughts and focus on learning some more Wayne.

Great morning.

xoxoxoxo

Great to know that you had a great morning run... isn't that one of the best feelings huh?
mind over matter, eliminate those negative thoughts, think success and acheivement and you will reap the same... Easy said maybe, but soooooooo effective... Success and acheivement comes in all forms, running 20 minutes pain free or setting a PB in a marathon, 10km run, etc... Success is what you want it to be, not comparing yourself to others "success"...
Keep those muscles relaxed, ankles up, knees down, sraight posture, lean from the ankles, and above all, enjoy your run and your music on the run!
Yours in Chi
J-R :yahh:

I went for another walk run yesterday. I seem to have gone through something the other day. I doubled the distance I ran the day before. I ran 3 times during my walk as opposed to 6 the day before and felt amazing. I do think I might have overdone it though. It took well over half an hour for my breathing to feel completely easy after the last run.

I'm not sure if it's the running or the shoes, but when I got up today I could hardly stand! The muscles in my feet hurt. Not in a bad way, just like they hadn't been used for a long time. Toning hurt! Anyway, no run today. Back into it tomorrow hopefully.

Thanks for all your help JR. I'm making progress. I want to get a little watch thing so I can time how long I run for. I'm not even sure if I can run for a minute yet. But I'm focussed on 10km's by June. Flexible but not too flexible with this!

xoxoxo

Well done Jen, great progress
Check that your shoes are loose, not tight, strangling your feet, loose as slippers is what Danny says, and is how i always run...
Remember , keep your feet muscles loose as well, no cramping onto your shoes!

Remember, the key to success is through gradual progress. Succeed at one thing at a time...
You are making great progress, but don't worry yet about how long you can run for, more so how you feel when you run without pain or discomfort. Distance will come later when the technique is acquired, or at least in part...

Breathing, On the run adopt a breathing to your rythm...easy, and expel all the carbon dioxide before breathing in again...with the stomach, not the chest...

Keep at it Jen, i'm a email or a call away for running and sporting advise that i have the pleasure to give to others sothat you all can all feel good in fitness and in health. Just my way of "giving back"!
yours in Chi
J-R

Wow thanks JR! I have to tell you that everytime I write your name the words "Who shot JR?" come to mind. Was that from a big 80's tv show?

My shoes are tight. They are Frees and I was told that they will loosen up. Hmmm. Might have to buy and extra pair of shoes. Shopping... oh dear!

Yes it's hard not to pressure myself to run further. I have to remember that I've never been fit before and so there is no muscle memory there. I'll get there though. One step at a time!

xoxoxox

Yes, J-R as in Dallas...! Quite a coincidence!
Try simply loosening the laces, from the first row to the top row. Widen the lace up area, and that should do the trick, if the shoes are your size, then dont go buying a bigger pair! Let me know!
J-R

Hi Jen,

I run in Frees as well and found that, although I normally wear a size 8.5, I had to go to a 9.5 in the Free.  And I don't use the laces - took those off completely.  They are a lovely snug fit without them and they just seemed a bit superfluous.

xo
Michaela

Hi guys, I only tie the laces loosley. I have funny shaped feet. Very narrow at the ankle and broad at the toe... like a duck.  :laugh: They are quite tight around the toe end of the shoe. The guy who sold them to me did say they would stretch though. I'll keep on wearing them around the house and hopefully they will stretch a bit more.

Where's Sacha? He owns about a million pairs. He has dvd's on them for goodness sakes. He is a free expert. Saaaaaaaaacha!

If they don't stretch, I'll go shopping!  :yahh:

xoxoxo

ill come Jennie,would love a pair...and i know Sach will be in on it,the man loves to shop....

Oh boy! How much fun would that be? LOL.

Run was a great one this morning. I grabbed Bella during an optimistic (from my point of view) moment of sunshine. It did start raining while I was out but I was at the dog park by then and went to the shelter and chatted to a really nice guy for a little while. Then I started running again.

I loosened my Free's and it was magical. My ankles and feet feel much better. Thanks Michaela. I know this might sound stupid but I didn't know they could go looser. When I bought them the guy in the shop said the laces were there to stop them stretching too much. So I just thought that I wouldn't need to do much with them until the shoes themselves stretched! Der. Never mind. It was great and I'm very grateful to you!

I doubled my distance again today. Made sure my posture was straight and leaning from the ankle. My breath is still letting me down but that will improve with time I'm sure. I'm focusing on it.

xoxoxo

Yahhh Jennie... your running sounds just amazing. And it's great when you can find the right shoe. I went up a size when I read about that too and they feel so much better.

Hi Jennie,

Frees - the smaller pair I use fro shorter training or races - I took off the insoles.

It makes them significantly bigger inside, it makes them lighter - helps with racewalk speed, and makes them even more "FREES" - feels even more barefoot, feet closer to ground, feet could feel the ground and contact better and it also forces me to walk/run more carefully - gently - kinda like walk/run without really putting weight on them - like trying to walk/run on water.

Take the insoles out while walking in them around the house and feel how differemt it is.

wishing You happy feet

Rudolf

Great advice Rudolf. I will try that.

I just found out the new colours for the next range coming out in the 3.0 in Jan. Looking good. Might have to ban myself from that store. lol

Congratulations! Jen on  your progress.

Hi Sheryl. Yes I'm really enjoying the running. My first thought of the morning after 'oh I want to still be sleeping!' is 'how is the weather... can I run today?'. I have these dreams where I am running and I'm so hot and sweaty and the breeze feels cool on my skin and I'm in a total zone. They are so real that when I wake they are like a memory. This tells me that my body is so ready for this and that I'm doing the right thing. They are amazing dreams...

Thanks Rudy. Will do. How are you young man? I hope you had a great festive season!!!

Sacha *pounce* There you are! Ban you from the shops? I don't think so... *shakes head* We will be shopping....

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

Hi Coach!

xoxoxox

Hi Everybody
Happy 2008 running to all!
Great news concerning the shoe laces!
Also when you hear a shoe sale person saying "they stretch and fit you", either change shops or go a bigger or wider size!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Run free!
Yours in Chi
J-R

Hi Jen, Hi everybody
How is everyone? and how is the running progressing?

I had a revelation this weekend, incredible. I found out about a guy called Dr Doug ( i had heard his name in a internet conference before, but was only half listening), and this guy is incredible... Pretty much a fore father ofthe raw scene, an incredible guythat holds seminars and sports weeks, sports nutrition course (in the USA) and the founder of the 80/10/10 diet, just ordered two books from his website, going to try the diet, looks incredibly possible, and the results, wow! P.B's next season!!!!!!!!! Anyone else experienced this guy?

have a great Sunday evening!
yours in Chi
J-R :yahh:

Hi coach, Yes many of us here have heard of Doug. There is a lot of Doug followers here. I wouldn't go so far as to call him one of the fore father of the raw scene! but he is an incredible athlete and a raw vegan too. Harley from here is probably Doug's number one fan and there are others too. he's just toured Australia and held what I believe was a great event in Sydney. What a shame you missed him. He also did a week at Byron and there was a lot of happy people from there.

the running is going great. I am having problems with my breathing and getting used to using new muscles but am enjoying it all the same.

Hi Jen, Sorry to hear that you are having issues with your breathing, how so? Finding new muscles, sounds good!

Yes, i got a message from Lennie at his website, that they were in Oz in December.... arrgggghhhhh!!!!! Well you know, although i was into Raw Food at about 60 to 70% by then, but was not aware of all the pp and websites and coaches and all. I thought that we were a minority group, finding out for ourselves!
Just as well my wife has the foresight to search on google for more information concerning raw food (Karen Knowler etc, v. interesting)
Never mind, i am going to the USA in 2008 for some business, so maybe try to get onto the week of Sports that he is holding in Aug/Sept... 
I am aiming to progress from actually 80 to 90% raw food to 100%, especially for the sports nutrition side of things.. Imagine... already i feel great, hows it going to be later???? yipppeee!!!!!...

Jen, Run and breath deep, breath relaxed, breath with ryhthm...

Yours in Chi
J-R