Raw Food Forums

A great place to ask Harley any questions on raw. But don't ask if you don't want to hear his answers!

xoxoxoxo

thanks jen, a great idea!

Glad you think so!  :yahh: I hope so too Harl's.

xoxoxo

feel free to ask me anything. however simple, personal, small etc it may be. IM HERE TO HELP!  :yahh:

i will ask the first question..
how many kg of casaba melon did freelea gobble today?
12kg!

oh and for the newbie crew whom dont know about me, you can read my thread 'binging on sugar' in the raw testimonials section....just by flick'n thru that will answer many of your questions. im not here to hide secrets on how to succeed on raw living foods. my goal is to help you help yourself.

Dear Dr. durianrider,
                             did the 12 kg exclude the inedible yellow C a s a b a melon skin,so that freelea ate a nett 12 kg of fruit from a gross 24 kg of C a s a b a ?
- Casaba Casanova .

Ahhh the guru-in-training has his own site.

I meant what I said on the other section, I think you could be a good raw teacher in the wider community, not just on this board.

So I will ask two questions that I have always wondered……the second one is a little bit personal, so I won’t be offended if you choose not to answer it.

1) I notice from your posts that you forage a lot.

Is that just in the open countryside, or does it involve scrumping/stealing from people’s gardens.

Do you forage much traditional Aboriginal bush foods or is it mainly grapes, apples etc…

2) Do you actually have a job? I get the impression that you don’t work. In that case, how can you afford to eat as much food as you do everyday? I mean 2 kgs of grapes every morning for breakfast or 12kg of melon in one sitting is going to add up and be expensive on an on-going basis. I know you ask for discounts in Macros, forage and go to the wholesale markets but still, given the amount of food you consume, I am confused. If you don’t mind, could you give a rough idea of how much money you spend on food in one week and where you source this food from. 

Thank you

12kg including skin. all the weights of food i eat i include skin. as it makes it easier for people to get a reference on what that amount looks like ie: pick up a 10kg box of grapes...or 13kg box of barney's.

i receive around 13k a year. from fruit pick'n, personal training, unemployment, bike racing prizes, vintage clothing & footwear, farm hand, painting, bike sales....whatever. for me affluence aint the digits in my bank account. its the quality of my daily experience with myself and others. our mental and physical state are largely determinded by what sits in our intestines...ie chicken killed and filled with despair or organic tree ripend pear..so i invest a lot of time to sourcing the best quality tucker. i ride or jog around the hood and see a lot of fruit. people are more than happy to give it to you. i always offer cash but most crew feel guilty for selling fruit you simply cant get in shops..ie they say' oh but the grapes have seeds! you just take it mate!' ok..thanks! native foods also have played more of a role in my diet. im learning more and more. i know i could survive months in south australia on what i know.

there is so many fruit trees around that people just dont eat from. cos the general thinking is that 'fruit will make you fat, fruit has a lot of sugar and it gives you digestive issues if you eat more than 2 pieces..' cos thats what they advertise in south oz..2 peices of fruit a day + 5 veg. so that leaves a lot of fruit dangling on the tree for you and me whom undertstand that fruit is the optimum fuel for human performance.

granted we could live in a garden of eden instead of having to shop at shops..food should be free and abundant. but as yet we dont, so i always chuck as many fruit seeds back into the ground and im sure to put all compost back in the soil to keep it healthy for future generations...

so average 13k AUS a year...and i eat around 3500cals a day. sometimes double that. the deals are there. someone could give me 50$ and i could come back with 500gm of fruit. OR i could come back with 20kg or more and their 50$. or i could spend the 50$ and get 50kg of certified organic produce if i was persistant....thats in adelaide. in sydney WOW! its the crazy cheap place to be certified organic raw vegan...as you have the largest organic wholesalers in australia! and they bin produce that is perfect ripeness but too ripe to stock on shelves...and you have a train system that runs to the market!

in adelaide you have to have to pay 27$ to enter the wholesale market..lol! but if you dont buy anything, they give the 27$ back..

i choose the spartan lifestyle as it allows me more time in nature....
no car, mobile, debts, credit cards, etc. ALL my material possessions i could lift on my back...
use solar power to charge mp3 player, bike lights etc.
cold showers, do own haircuts, shop at vinnies etc. use olive oil on the bike chain, get old but safe tyres from bike riders whom have more dollars than sense, thrash parts and give back to warranty department for r&d in exchange for new ones...

i could have a new bike each season from sponsors but choose to ride the current ones i have. as they fit, are fast and safe.

law of detachment is a funny thing..dont wish you had it..know youll get it!
ie: my raw conviction intensity creates a fruit abundance vacum that i find it hard to explain. i always get the best fruit each day, those that travel with me experience this also. cos whatever we focus on we get...

in adelaide and sydney im known as the dude that eats '30 bananas for breakfast', so people think your a little 'special' and give you super special deals. cooked fooders feel guilty for selling you fruit they wouldnt eat themselves..its like big conspiracy pushing convicted raw crew forwards. i KNOW i can get more nourishing calories per  $ than any other diet. why? cos its natures plan....mother nature always supports those whom support her, and those whom overcome the initial feelings of doubt and taking things personally as society says your a fruitcake...

call me crazy for wanting world peace, clean fun food and a simplistic lifestyle for all beings sharing this planet...

Thank you for your answer.

Can you also please tell me:

1) The “average” you actually spend on food in one week?

2) Do you pay rent? Or do you crash for free at friends places?

We are trying to reduce our expenditure, so I was hoping to get some ideas from you.

We are spending around $100.00 - $150.00 on fruit & vegetables but often run out of food before the end of the week.

We can’t keep this up much longer, as it is too expensive. We are not able to go to the wholesale markets because they are a two hour drive from us and we both work during the week.

It would be ok at the weekend but we would end up wasting our initial savings on petrol anyway. And no, we can't more nearer to the markets

Now I am sure you would say that “I am making excuses” but in my eyes they are valid excuses. Going to the wholesale markets is impossible and just not viable for us.

We often ask for discounts at Macros. I have asked for a discount if we buy in bulk but they said no. Normally we will get discounts if we can see they have an over supply of very ripe fruit which they will never sell. Only one assistant we cater to our requests, the other two won’t, so we have to pick our shopping days carefully.

We went for a three hour walk around the neighbourhood yesterday looking for fruit trees, found one lemon tree, one pumpkin plant and nothing else. It is mainly native gum trees and black boys round here. The council spray in parks and on verges etc... so I would be loathe to eat anything in the streets anyway.

Before I was married, I backpacked around the world and lived very cheaply but I was "as free as a bird", I only had myself to please and could do what a wanted, had no responsibilities. It was fantastic at the time but I don't want to go back to that way of life now.

When we were first married, we use to live on $9,100 a year but from that we also had to pay rent, electricity, gas. We had our own veggie patch, we made our own bread, brewed our own beer and shopped at Vinnes. We had some fun times but it was basically a hard existence. It was an extremely good learning curve.....but not one I wish to repeat in a hurry.

So if you could take a walk in my shoes, put yourself in my place, with rental, bills and other expenditure responsibilities, what other tips or hints could you give for sourcing cheaper food?

Hey Harls...you have seen my family, you know how many little mouths we have to feed...this fortnight I want to try foraging and buying all organic, even doing some work to get some free produce in exchange...a big step, to put your words into action, to see if it is viable for a family of 5. Please will you let me know, where is the best place for me to get organics that are family friendly priced...but good quality, I do have a business number if that helps with wholesalers??...and where do you and freelea forage?...I know all around Glynde, Firle and Campbelltown there are HEAPS of trees...any ideas through your own hands on experience very much appreciated. 

BB
XXXX

Harley you made the Logies........Thats right the show 'Whats good for you' was nominated and they used the clip of you on your bike.

thought I would let you know.

Harls...thought Id give your word a go and went foraging with the little ones...check out our bounty...( I posted a new topic)...I am quite amazed at how perfect everything is...the persimons..OMG the BEST....

logies...love it. all part of durianriders plan for global domination...which includes fruit trees in every street, school, uni, workplace, highway etc..

life is like foraging..if you dont find what you want on that street, go to the next one..or just be happy with what we got or didng get...

my mate was talking to me today about his health. he has just bought a second house, pick'n up a new car today and telling me he finds it tough to find the energy to train to be as fit as he likes. i said 'dude you just gotta get more rest and fine tune your nutrition'...reply was 'yeah i know but its not that easy harls...'

where am i foraging? ha! that means less fruit for me! lol! but yeah you know the golden triangle of glynde, paynehm etc...pick a street..any street and keep them eyes open..we have around a million houses in adelaide..thats a lot of fruit trees...i remember foraging 5kg of supreme oranges in iron knob once..lol! you just never know...

today i went to the organic shop on the other side of town, it was closed and i needed carbs quick. i switched on the foraging radar and promptly found 6kg of decent grapes.

look in the yellow pages for organic wholesalers. 2 main ones in adelaide. steves and pyramid.

how many kids you got kk? my friend has got 7...from muscle bound teenager whom eats almost as much as me to durian lov'n toddlers..plus the 2 adults. they are a organic raw family that moved to where the food is. so i guess it comes down to priorities..we have diffferent priorities..and thats fine.

my mate once said to me, i will live anywhere thats gotta pub!, cos a man gotta have his stubbie after a hard days yakka!' yes he was serious..serious about his priorities. and good on him for living how he wants to.

on rent..sometimes i pay 200$ a week..sometimes im living on the street...my health is my main priority and sleeping outdoors is the best way to sleep anyway..

i was at the market on saturday. this dude offered me a box of almost ripe banana. but they werent organic and i knew i could get some organic fruit carbs if i looked harder. i told him to give it to someone that would appreciate it more. i think it probably ended up in the bin with the rest of the almost ripe bananas..

how much fruit goes in the trash? most of it. even the fruit and greens they sell..most just rots in the fridge..lol! we must find a way to tap into the bounty..its just that simple.

years ago i woke up one morning after a really bruised bike crash rib and i felt guilty for asking time off work. soon after i started questioning what and whom i was living for.....

man i can simplify peoples lives so much...a diet of simple sugars lets us see how. eating complex carbs makes life complex..

the more we own, the less we own it and the more it starts to own us...
i sit down with people and we work out their budget...most of it is going to establishing public status via house, car, furnishings, new kitchen, first class air travel, booze, smokes and other drugs, cooked foods, air con/heating bills, meaningless entertainment, animal products, poison sprayed foods....take away all that and you have a lot left to fill the tank with as much quality raw as you care for...

No kids yet but hopefully in the future. Public status/keeping up with the Jones has never bothered me. We rent an old house, have an old car, have old furnishings (that are falling apart), we have an old kitchen, we don't travel first class, we rarely drink ($20.00 a week treat), we don't smoke, we don't have Foxtel, we don't buy take-away, we don't have credit cards, we don't buy new clothes. I know how to do a budget and stick to it, due to hubby being an accountant. Not sure what you mean by "animal products"? We buy cat food, if that's what you mean. And no, I won't get rid of my cats, they are like my children, part of the family and I love them very much. Also I am not prepared to leave my rental accomm to live in a tent, just so I can buy food. You would NOT suggest BerryBliss make these sort of sacrifices, so why me?

Moving house to be closer to cheaper food sources is NOT really a very practical suggestion.

If we move closer to the markets, it means we both have to find new jobs.

What happens if the market shuts down and shifts somewhere else...........move again, new jobs again!!

Just imagine if we had children, and kept taking the children out of school and moving them to new schools to save a little bit of money on food. I can just imagine them at the psychiatrist in 15 years time...."we became social outcasts and had no friends because mummy & daddy kept moving us, just to save $20.00 on our weekly food bill".....

Sorry I don't mean to be rude but I think that is a silly and very unpractical suggestion.

Also you have misunderstood my original question. I don't need budget advice or living advice, I just wanted ideas on where to source cheaper foods........co-ops,  wholesalers (although not sure how you do this without an ABN), markets at the end of the day selling stuff off cheaper, dumpster diving etc......what places have worked for you personally?

I am a bit confused by your suggestion of going to wholesalers. I work at a wholesalers and we will only sell to people with an ABN who are retailers in the industry. We don't sell to "Joe Public", so why would an organic fruit & vegetable wholesaler sell to "Joe Public"?? How do you buy wholesale without an ABN? Can you please explain this one

EDIT 6.45PM: I rang two wholesalers today and they said they don't sell to people without a ABN, so I really need your clarification on this please.

Thank You

I buy all my food from the organic wholesalers in Sydney, so does RAA (Grant) and others.

If you buy enough, typically they are happy to treat you as a cash customer.  Some are more strict and want a $250 minimum order.  I haven't known of a wholesaler in sydney that won't sell to the public - other states I don't know, but I expect it should be ok if you talk to them.  Of course you can't just expect to walk in and purchase bits and pieces. Typically I spend around $300 everytime I get stuff from the markets and it tends to last me 2-3 weeks. sometimes longer.

Hi KittyK,

Don't fret - I think Harley was talking about meat, dairy, etc, when he mentioned "animal products"!  I also have cats that are very precious to me - they (and my rats and rabbit) are the reason I have a mortgage.  Given the choice between the type of freedom Harley has and my cats, well ... there's no choice, really.  I couldn't imagine my life without my critters, so I just take the advice I CAN use and let the rest go.

Regarding wholesalers, do you have any people who you could form a little co-op with?  That would give you the opportunity to buy at wholesale prices without having to outlay a lot of money all by yourself.

Just a thought ...

Michaela

Jim.. does that means your in Hawaii?? :)

Yes this is a great idea and I have thought about it in the past. However, all my friends and acquaintances think organic / biodynamic food is a complete rip off and refuse to buy it (no matter how much I tell them otherwise)

I love organic / biodynamic fruit & veggies and try to buy them all the time. That I think is my issue, I could buy conventional fruit & veggies with no cost issues but I really find it quite tasteless, bland and inferior in quality to organic / biodynamic food.

I want my (raw organic) cake and be able to eat it too !! 

:laugh:

No still in Canberra.  Was in Hawaii for holiday over xmas and new years.  That photo of me was taken on Xmas day which I spent running in the jungle north of honolulu.  Lots of fun, despite the intense rain and being covered in mud and having to catch buses back to my hotel with curious onlookers wondering where 'mud man' had come from!!

i often like to answer questions cos i know many others are reading and it gives me a chance to address more of an audience. i like how non vegan crew put such importance providing homes for one type of animal yet stuffing another type of animal in their mouth..lol! i give all my non vegan 'pet owner' friends a poke in the ribs about this..

20$ a week on poison? wow! not even i the king of bin bargains could afford that. i equal that to me putting 20$ in the vita mix and knock'n my brain cells against the wall a few times.

hey kk i think you just have to give up the battle to improve your health. the apathy won. you lost. just join the ranks of those willing to settle for second best, its what our planetary decline is founded on. it sounds like you tried. hey, eating poison free quality food aint for everyone. it sounds like you dont have any support and your on your own and people around you value meaningless stuff more than health. heck your right, your kids will end up at shrinks say'n 'mum valued our intake of organic fresh fruits and veg so much that she did whatever it took to get em..., mum showed us that you cant let society's false hurdles get in the way of a poison free feed...'

kk if its just to hard, its just to hard. dont stress yourself about it. i mean how many animals in nature relocate to find food? how many people in society relocate to find food? only the extremo ones like me. you dont want your friends that think organic is a rip off thinking your extreme cos you start locating yourself to make organic shopping more convienient?

 hey i base where i live based on availibility of healthy nutrition and some say im bananas, certified bananas...lol!

often i only spent 5$ at the wholesalers on a 14kg box of cert org bananas. the deals i got from those wholesalers were often so ruthless that id have to cross check and read my old threads cos they are unbelievable.

can we imagine the traffic jams on the highways, the riots, the looting if tommorrow alcohol, cooked food etc was going to be banned..imagine the 50km long que to the only resturant that served cooked food...

if we truly want something, we find a way. we dive in deep and forge a path. if we cant find an example we must create one. where there is no healthy trend in our personal community we must start one or support one existing.

and for the record..the fondest accomodation memories as a child where camping outdoors with my dad and brothers..i always tried to con mum into camping but she just wasnt keen..

kids wrapped in cotton wool often grow up to become adults wanting to contine being wrapped in cotton wool.

its raining outside, its cold, im hungry. the organic shop is 10km away. if i want to get there i must run or ride. no other way. and id have my life no other way..as life is a raw adventure or its nothing!

Hi KittyK

Although I certainly value your views and input Durianrider, I agree with KittyK that moving for food supply, particularly when you have a family is not the most practical of solutions for most of us, nor is living a nomadic lifestyle (no is it what some of us wish for).   

I have 3 little kids, husband and me and these are some of the ways I have managed to reduce my food bill:

* I shop at the organic wholesalers, mainly Back to Eden on a Monday as they have a "retail section" where you can buy smaller quantities of boxes they want to get rid of which is usually mostly high quality, so I can get 1 or 2kg of various vegies in season plus I mostly get my fruit in bulk boxes.  I don't have an ABN number.
* A certified organic farmer on the Central Coast who comes down to the Flemington markets on Fridays prepares a box of greens (which I pre-order) for me.  This box is then picked by a courier (only costs me $7/box with Fastway couriers to my house) and delivered to my place (once a week)
* I also ask non certified organic farmers at my local farmers market whether they spray or not and how they grow their produce.  Generally they are quite happy to chat about this and if you look them straight in the eye you will generally know if they are telling you the truth.  A number of old fashioned farmers don't find a need to spray etc which is actually more expensive for them if it is uncessary.  This way you can get the benefit of 'real' food without paying the certified 'organic' premium.  I know there are a couple of such farmers at the Frenchs Forest markets in Sydney
* I used to be part of a co-op near me which organised bi-monthly deliveries (this has since increased to once a week).  see Sydney Organic Buyers group (http://groups.msn.com/SydneyOrganicBuyersGroup/buyersgrouproles.msnw)
They advertised their existence through various fairs, word of mouth etc.  Although I no longer have a need to be part of this co-op, this is a great idea and one way to advertise it may be through any sustainable initiatives your local council may have.  You may be surprised that there are a bunch of other people in your area also interested in this idea.   
*another idea may be to find out if there are any local farmers nearer to you who don't spray and would be willing to prepare a box for you which you could pick up or be delivered as in my case via courier. 
*lastly, we also have a small garden which has weeds growing in it (edible) and in which my husband has planted various greens and vegies (only a small contribution but it all helps plus its fun too for the kids)

Hope that is helpful

Awesome posts by both of DurianRider and RawAussieMum where there is a way there is a will for sure.

I think you are really getting some great advise here KittyK, I am just wondering if there is any way you can put in a small vege garden, it's so much fun to do and great for kids to see where things "come" from.

We have some fruit trees in our garden and I sent them outside wit a couple of bowls to collect. The first couple of times they were sooo proud, "look this all comes from our garden Mum" It opens their eyes so they can see what is growing right under their nose...

Good luck

We all know that Harley can be.... less than gentle when posting. Can I make a suggestion that if Harley posts an answer that partly or fully rubs the wrong way to please not turn it into a big thing? This is his area. He can't go gallivanting all over the forum anymore so it's pretty easy to avoid his posts if necessary and to get answers from other areas of the forum as well.

xoxoxox

 %)

Duh! Of course he meant that. I feel like a real twit, at the time of reading I just couldn’t work out what DR meant by “animal products”.

In my defence, I was in a bit of a tizz and had a fuzzy brain when I wrote the reply. As I had just highly embarrassed myself by ringing someone up and asking to speak to Vagina, instead of Virginia.

Thanks for clearing that one up.

can i barge in??

you do need an ABN to purchase from most genuine Australian wholesalers.  anyone can easily get ot for no cost as far as I know (i'm from Malta so feel free to correct me)!  anyone who is a resident of Australia for tax purposes can apply for an ABN at no cost - you only need your Tax File Number to get an ABN. You can apply for one online at the ATO www.ato.gov.au,

i've a question for harley. considering you're so good at foraging for raw food in australia, have you considered running programs to show people how to forage for wild foods? i'd like to know where you find all these foods you forage.

I don’t want to hijack DR’s forum but just to answer your ABN post.

Yes, anyone can apply for an ABN but you can't then use it to willy nilly buy things at wholesale prices.

You can only use it for your related business (i.e.) if you are then going to on-sell the wholesale items at retail price.

I work in hospitality wholesale. If a restaurant, hotel, bar or anyone related to the hospitality industry wanted to buy from us, with the view to then on-selling those items at a retail price in their retail outlets, that would be fine.

If a manager at a pharmacy or car yard contacted us and wanted to use his companies ABN (or his own ABN) to purchase wholesale stock for his own personal use, we would say no.

It would be like me applying for an ABN, then going to the new car yard, local supermarket or clothes shop and demanding to pay wholesale, just because I happened to have an ABN.

Part of my job description entails assessing and approving customer wholesale applications. Around Christmas we have a lot of Mums and Dads with ABN’s wanting to buy cheap items for Christmas presents. Or I will get a wife ringing up with her husbands ABN for his plumbing company trying to buy cheap products for her sister’s birthday present etc…...They all try to use their unrelated industry ABN’s to buy at wholesale prices, these sort of applications always get rejected.

It is illegal for us to sell wholesale to members of the public. That is why I was so surprised that DR is able to buy wholesale for his own personal use without a business related ABN.

Hope that helps to clear up any misconceptions about what you can and can’t do with an ABN.

.

i disagree...i dont have an abn and i know id get served at any organic wholesaler..why? cos ive never been rejected. any organic fresh fruit wholesalers reject your cash purchase to buy boxes of fruits? let me know and next time im in the area i will show you its possible.

even though its 'my' thread, im still gonna keep it pretty chill. the style i use on other forums wont be matched here.

wow, some great ideas from other families.

tchu..yeah everday i run foraging courses. for free. im on the bike everday and im up for showing people what to look for..but i wont take anyone to the prime hunt'n grounds..lol! just give you the basics so you can go from there.

and then we have what bb did..she took the kids out and busted out some hardcore foraging bounty! no one grabbed her hand..she was hungry for it, knew its was possible and took action!

Dear DR

I think I will have to give up with my particular line of questioning to you, as we are getting nowhere fast.

I would only beg of you (for any future questions I may have) to read my question properly ~ I really didn’t ask for your personal comments on how bad you think my life is. I just wanted simple tips on cheaper food.

You say......"I may as well give up, due to my apathy”...... because I refuse to completely uproot my life, my husband’s life, my home of ten years, both our jobs, just to be nearer the wholesale markets.

To that I would say.......please stop assuming what I do or don’t do, as you know nothing about my life.

I already drive 45 mins each way on a Sunday to go to the (non-wholesale) organic markets. I have already started to build a veggie patch at home. I already buy organics on-line because I can’t get what I need locally. I already drive 1 hour each way once a fortnight to go to the organic co-op. So yes I am more than prepared to go out of my way to source what I need, but only within logical reason.

I know Jennie said at the beginning “don't ask if you don't want to hear his answers”. It’s not that I don’t want to hear your answers; it’s just that you waffled novel like, rather than answering the simple question put to you.

Anyway not to worry, the other forum members have more than adequately answered them.

Thank you to Jim, Michaela, RawAussieMum and Eve, who have answered my questions brilliantly or given me inspiration with their hints, ideas and suggestions, just the kind of helpful answers I was looking for, thanks a million guys.

Especially thank you to RawAussieMum ~ brilliant, simple and practical answers ~ maybe you should have your own guru forum too!! 

-_-  :laugh:


Edited to correct spelling mistakes.

oopsies sorry about that!!!  guess its a bit more complicated than I thought!!!
I understand where you are coming from.  Here, foraging is impossible unless i move country!  Malta has NO veg/fruit greenery and where there is its barb-wired!  Malta is small so industry has pretty much taken over! I have come to my conclusion that being raw is expensive but a price i am happily pay!!  I hope you can find a happy medium KK :)  Good Luck!!!

hEY kk,

DR is right about the F & V wholesalers...i work in the industry and know that they sell to the public. Some ask that you buy over a certain amount (round the $200-$300) which is easy when you're buying in bulk. And it's also a good place to get ripe fruit as retailers don't want to buy ripe stuff as it'll usually be over-ripe by the time they on-sell it. Also, put an ad somewhere local to find fellow like-minded people to start a co-op. Good luck :)

Yes if only it was that simple but then again everyone would be running around buying wholesale and all the retail stores would have to shut up shop.

If we sold wholesale to the public and wholesale to retail customers it would create a conflict of interest. The retail customers would be very angry that we were under cutting their potential profits.

From DR’s (and other forum members) experiences, it is obviously possible to buy from some organic wholesalers without a business related ABN.

Not sure what the legal implications would be for the wholesaler but if they are happy to do it, who am I to question.

I have already rung two organic wholesalers in Sydney and they both said that they won’t sell wholesale to members of the public.

I could easily consume 20kg of carrots a week but at $5.00 per kg, I limit my carrot juicing. Sometimes I can get juicing carrots at $2.00 a kilo but the markets don’t have them every week and I really need them on a regular basis. So if I could buy carrots in bulk at a wholesaler, it would be amazing.

So I would be very interested to find out the company that DR, Jim and others are managing to buy from. If they don’t want to post it here, perhaps they would be kind enough to consider sending me a PM with the details.

I thought Malta was meant to be very green and pretty.....

Thank you Organic_Girl for supplying the name (F & V wholesalers) ~ that's a great help and I am happy to buy in bulk.

DR maybe you should put your "foraging courses" for each city on-line at YouTube.

.

pick up the yellow pages in your home town. look up 'organic wholesalers' etc. pick anyone and go visit with a wad of cash and some hunger.

i could list the ones ive been to, or i can just say ive NEVER been refused...lol!

kk what did you think of dougs talk in sydney? when he stayed back for question and answer did you find he addressed the food availibility question?

KK - this older thread of Harley's might be helpful?

http://www.raw-pleasure.com.au/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,71/topic,4749.0 (http://www.raw-pleasure.com.au/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,71/topic,4749.0)

Reading through may give you some ideas, and the organic sellers that are at Flemington are listed.

Telephoning the companies may produce different results to being there in the flesh.  It might be a case of providing a standard response over the phone, when asked if they sell to the public.

I hope this helps.

Edit:  Oops!  I just noticed that you replied in that thread, so you know of its existence.  Perhaps this wasn't so helpful after all.

another question people ask me is the importance ofbeing able to accurately count calories and succeeding as a raw vegan. personally in all my world travels and emails with long term raw vegans some of them over 20years 100% rv has came to the conclusion that they all have the ability to understand and count carb calories. but i thought it couldnt be that simple so i emailed the dougster and he confirmed that he too has NEVER met someone that just 'chances' it day by day calorie wise and stays raw vegan.

so many crew go back to cooked food and or animal products saying 'oh raw vegan is just too extreme'..but they just didnt eat enough carbs. even a good buddy of mine in all her journals you can clearly see HARDCORE undereating of carbs. the amounts of food she typed in,just dont add up calorically to the figures she gave. low fat she was, but eating enough carbs to maintain the health she wanted...NO WAY!. She didnt do 811 wholistically. she cut back the fat, but still ate combo abombo's as her daily menu planners indicate.

every day involved undereating calories,
eating combo abombos like dates and corn, mango and dulse, date and tomato. sultanas and coconut.
eating foods that people with digestive upsets shouldnt eat like seaweed, tomatoes, lemon juice, dried fruit.
eating too many different foods per day, per meal and expecting a lifelong chron's condition able to handle it.


then she did a lengthy juice fast and tried to work back in a job she labeled as 'toxic and harsh' constantly getting asked about her way of eating. She was a lean bean as it was, to put her system under further adrenal stress by lack of carb calories whilst still trying to maintain a lifestyle she did...no wonder she went back to cooked food and animal products...EVERYONE does..the body simply cannot function longterm on rations. something will break. the body has survival in mind.

the more people i talk with about raw, the more i see where people trip up on. what would have kept my friend fueled to continue?
sufficient MONO meals of fruit.
no dried fruit, tomatoes, condiments etc ie things that irritate sensitive digestive tracts.
MAXIMUM of 2 ingredients per meal. and only a fruit and tender green together ie pear and lettuce, banana and celery, not 2 fruits together.

so my friend actually didnt do 811 correctly and hence didnt end up getting the results she desired. she unknowlingly starved herself all the way back to cooked food and animal products. just like many do.
its not a dig, its just basic physiological facts that highlight the importance of knowing OBJECTIVELY how much fuel we are putting in the tank..we count the litres going into our cars fuel tank so why shouldnt we count the carb calories going into our personal fuel tank? otherwise youll be left on on the highway of life with low blood sugar eat'n roadhouse tucker! lol!

Harley - a couple of questions that I ask with utmost sincerity and respect ......

Why is it that when people do not thrive on 811, the ONLY retort is that they did not follow the diet correctly? 

Why is it never entertained that 811 simply is NOT for every body?

I know that you must be familiar with Chase.  A 20 page thread on another forum containing testimonials from people whose health declined on 811 can't be ignored, can it?

Hey Harley

Thanks for putting so much into this thread.

I am still hopelessly addicted to cooked food but I dream of being 100% RV and it's something my soul has been wanting all my life. I have not been able to let the cooked food go. My resolve is strong in the morning but by the time I get to the evening the addiction kicks in and my resolve melts away. To tell you the truth it's going to take a miracle for me to get off cooked food and that's not just being dramatic.

I think greens might be the key, with bananas being very important. Did I understand you correctly as saying avoid tomatoes?

Steve

i have a question (i ask also with utmost sincerity and respect): how many people in this Forum are successfully on a 811 and 100 Raw?
i find the diet working well and havent yet 'deep explored' on a long-term things like mono-dieting and other aspects like combination... 
as Harley puts it in things can be more complex (and simple) than we might think and our bodies are 'healing' slow but steadfast as long we allow em to do so, in the right way...

How many minutes between each mono meal?
Is it 15 or 30 minutes?
Tomato is often described as a fruit so is it a fruit and also a vegetable?
A rockmelon is also a fruit and a vegetable?

Wow, pick up the Yellow Pages, now why didn't I think of that…………..sorry sarcasm, could resist………….. where do you think I got the other two numbers from!!

Well why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and actually list the ones you have been to. I will then test out your theory of “never being refused” and report back.  :laugh:

I didn’t stay back for Dr Doug’s after lecture talk, I was quite ill that day and I just wanted to get home and lay down. As it was I nearly vomited in the Bronte RSL carpark, just imagine the embarrassment of vomiting over Dr Doug.....

Anyway I will look into those wholesalers and see what happens.

DR maybe you should put your "foraging courses" for each city on-line at YouTube.

Is there any real chance that you could do this, it would be really good if you could.

??

How many fruit trees did you plant, Harley? :)

Gosia

I had forgotten about that thread, it was a while ago now. If Flemington markets were open on a Saturday or Sunday I could go, but apparently they are only open early Friday morning. I could take a day off work and go but could not do that every week, boss would have a mini meltdown  :laugh:

Lol, we have greenery, just not edible greenery - mostly acorn trees, poppies stuff like that.  What we do have in abundance are prickly pear trees.  So those I get by the kilos!  But are they safe to eat in great quantities - cos they are mostly seeds!

Harley,

Is your lifestyle called "Voluntary Simplicity"?

Harley I was thinking about what you said about meaningless stuff. Well I have question for you.

 I course we all value different things at different levels differently. Nothing right or wrong but do you value adventure or fun more?

Just curious.

Wow, so many questions being thrown! :)

IVE never been refused service..i didnt say others wouldnt. im sure if i went in barefoot and shirtless and asking to purchase a carrot that resembled johnny depp they may decline...

eb organics
back to eden
organics direct
eco farms

kk, pity you missed the end cos you were sick. see how our health is so important? otherwise me miss out on life. it just passes us by.

steveb, the best fruit is the one you like the most. organic bananas are great, but if you only eat 2 or they aint really spotty ripe, your gonna be hungry very quickly. ie you dont get in enough carb calories your gonna be hunt'n for something to vill the void real quick. keep read'n 811. its all in there.

i say tomatoes are bad to those that are allergic to em. freelea gets mouth ulcers every time. its well noted that they can cause acid issues in those with extra sensitive digestion, especially when mis'combined with dried fruit etc.
i eat tomatoes personally.

30 mins between each mono meal? no way..as the first meal is still in the stomach. when i eat 20 bananas that keeps be going to the next meal. then i eat to go to the next meal. i eat breakfast, lunch, dinner. i aim for 600g of carbs minimum a day. thats not much. its the minimum id need to still be able to ride my bike anywhere i need to go, day in, day out. society is so dependent on fossil fuels to get em around town..people driving 3km to pick up something small? i know one mum whom choose never to own a car yet still have a child. that was 20 years ago and she still rides today. she knows how much carbs to eat. i saw her 2 weeks ago and she told me her son has just got his license and doesnt ride anymore..lol! what can you do.
getting back to the point..you just gotta put enough carbs in the tank from sweet fruit or your gonna look for other sources. ALL of which dont fuel our cells as effectively or cleanly. sure you can win an olympic gold medal on corn flakes, but the winning margain is just more on better quality fuel...

we must remember that EVERY cell in the human body is fueled by glucose and or fructose...now that explains why people jump back to cooked carbs and refined sugars when they go back to cooked..EVERYTIME. rice, corn chips, cadbury, pasta, bread, hommus, falafel, biscuits etc. heck before doug started coaching me i was jumping back to chinese vegan cafes again and again restock'n the carbs i underate from my fruit phobic version of the raw diet...and still to this day no one has beat'n my record of 5 tofu burgers at adelaides most popular vegan cafe..

i can eat big..i need to in order to get the carbs to do what i want physically. still its only a few times a year i do something real stand out athletically. so im only average 50- 60km a day light spinning on the bike..thats not much at all. the 200km a day for weeks on end, thats a few times a year on some outback tour somewhere. so that means most of the year i eat the amount a kenyan marathon runner ingests (10g carb per kg) and a few times a year im eating like a tour de france rider (20g carb per kg). more or less depending on how much fuel i need to keep functioning. i dont eat for weight loss..lol! my lifestyle automatically took care of that years ago. i eat for optimum performance cos its been proven again and again that excessive fat consumption impedes your carb and oxygen absorption and delivery....

rg; how many trees have i planted? well i dont know anyone in adelaide that has spread more fruit seeds into random garden beds than myself..imagine if everyone did that what a paradise it would be..we know that most fruit seeds and skins ends up in land fill creating co2 emmissions..

and on 811 and people that dont succeed...yes its cos they didnt do it right! lol! how else would it not work? its like riding a bike with 'no hands'  instead of hands safely on the handle bars...sure your 'riding a bike' but you know its not how its meant to be done and is dangerous. i know many people that have read 811 and said they had ago..but they just skimmed it. you ask them how many calories in a gram of fat? they dont know. you ask them what is the best meal for absorption and digestive ease? they dont know. you ask them reasons why excess fat is so dangerous? they dont know. you ask them how many carbs they aim for in a day and what that looks like in the fruit in season that is available to them? THEY SIMPLY DONT KNOW...

what happend is they tried their own version of 811 and it didnt work and they blamed the program. like me riding my bike on the other side of the road and getting hit by a car and saying' cycling is just too dangerous...'but i just wasnt riding responsibly and got hurt from my own lack of attention and decide to blame others for it.

low fat aint extreme..low calories is...eating a diet starved of calories and or carbs is putting us on the road to crashville.

those that didnt succeed on 811 didnt do it properly. its that simple. and i do agree its not for everyone, cos many cant give up cooked addictions due to individuals caving into peer pressure via family, friends social pressures etc. its just like going vegan, many people think their partner or kids or workmates will freak, so they just dont. but many know that we must walk to the beat of our own drum and become healthy, happy, fit role models for everyone  one around us. we have enough sickness in society, enough sedentary folk, 65+% of australia is overweight or obsese. and the rest of them are struggling on some fad diet or going from the next coffee or energy drink to avoid eating for fear of slamm'n on da pounds..

what we need is real food plans that work and support nature. that are accessible to everyone whatever their budget etc. australia needs more organic fruit trees. we dont need mono crop or animal torture. vote with your dollar.

and on chase..man that dude is a laugh. when i was in los angeles i pleaded with him to come foraging in beverly hills for citrus...he never replied. same with doug..doug invited him to meet up many times to sit down and explain the confusion chase had. chase NEVER met doug..

who is chase? is he a fictional character made up by someone on the net? is it tom billings younger brother? lol!
i have an alias on the net called GI LOW. he is an advocate of the oat, oil and beer diet. the thing with the net is anyone can jump on and write anything. they never post a real photo, come to a potluck or raw talk and sit down and work out where they went wrong and try to emulate those that are succeeding. the first to complain are those that never really do anything. identities like chase just aint real life characters and taking what they type as serious can be seriously bad for your health...

'hey!! read your post Harley,and as you know ive been off the forum..but felt moved to reply...

i took it for how its meant....i did my best ,i thought i was doing my best for my body....i was hanging with you and the crew,we were all eating the same...supposedly 811....the raw chillies when i  came back f...ed me up....i was doing fine before that,totally rockin it!then all of a sudden i couldnt do it any more....so i had to change....

i had a time of eating some animal protein....and now i dont! i have seeds(ground finely) and i eat raw all day..at dinner i have the steamed veg and veg soups....with raw salads...these seems to soothe my uc..and keep my body zipping along nicely!whatever it takes right!!

remember guys..everyone is different....

oh i wouldnt say that eating 30-40 bananas a day is undereating carbs Harls....lol...

back into my apparent oblivion now...bye crew

sacha on adventure and fun?
 in a modern life where everything is made easy for us, it is uncommon to willingly face dificult situations..but only when we are challenging our beleifs and current abilities are we really growing therefore 'having fun!'..

so for me fun is the product of adventure.

volantry simplicity? ive never heard of those 2 words put together..sounds interesting.

go back to thru your diary journals neet and see how you (in my opinion) underate longterm. you said 'eating 30 -40 bananas a day' what does this mean?
 i know i aim for that caloric wise, and i hope you do to. cos only that sort of calories will suffice long term for people wishing to be active, anything under that will lead to burnout unless the person is very sedentary.

Thanks for that thought provoking response.... Nice words

I remember Neet's menus at a time. They were very impressive, no sign of lack of calories to me. And I remember Harley that you were advising Neet to fast, which seems rather strange to someone that starves???

Harley, if you want to have a fruit tree on every street to forage, you got to plant some! Spreading seeds around just won't do the trick, unless you make sure that what grows out of them is not chopped.

Gosia

Yes I know how important health is, I learnt that late in life but not too late thank goodness.

I was actually sick from eating a raw salad.

It had obviously not been handled, stored or washed properly.

It is the second time in my life that I have had “food positioning” from eating a raw salad.

I hope YOU washed your hands before you handled and chopped up that watermelon that was served during the interval. :laugh:

I dont count calories, and i dont think i do myself any harm by not doing so.

Lol, wow im feeling super guilty now for not posting a photo, hahahhaha, promise, will post one when i have one that actually looks like me, all my old ones just arent me anymore.

In regards to the caloric need, i think to compare ourselves to you harley, for most of us anyways, is a little unrealistic. Now not saying this for those who are training, but i look at it like i always looked at weetbix (excuse the cooked food comparison, but this is how i think of how much i should eat when i look at harleys consumption).

I remember years back those weetbix ads, how many do you do? with the athletes doing 12 or 13, and i used to think wow wish i could do that, i eat 2 standardly and 3 on a good day (i loved wheat bix). Then id look at what hubby would eat, and he'd easily eat 6 or 7, and again i was going wow! how do you eat so many, and his response how do you eat so little? So when i think of caloric comparisons of me being fine and going all morning on 2 weetbix and athletes needing 12, then compare to banannas, and my 3 in a bananna smoothie, maybe 5 or 6 if im real hungry and eating as is, and compare it to harleys 20 in a sitting i think, yeah my consumption is fine.

When i do more in a day i eat more, simple as that, so i dont beat myself up about counting calories, because i eat till im satisfied, like i always have.

I also dont beat myself up about eating fats, a handful of almonds to nibble on is miles better than some things i used to do, like biscuits and coffee. While its not good to eat alot, i dont believe we should be hard on ourselves when we do crave fats, go with it, enjoy, move on.

From what ive read of other long term raw foodies, the transition to high fruit, low fat, simple eating seems to happen naturally, it seems like its a natural progression over a number of years. So maybe we shouldnt get too caught up on 811, or if were even 100%, just eat as much raw as you like, whenever you like, enjoy your food, and enjoy the journey.

In regards to having to include some cooked food because of bowel issues, well to me that makes sense, ive known people with bowel issues to respond badly to high raw, seems to take a longer transition, and even then they may not handle alot of leafy greens. Id rather see those people eat high raw with some steamed veges at night than stay on the unhealthy diets that are making them sick in the first place.

Now, after my long rant, im a bit lazy, and well frankly rather sick atm, so i cant be bothered looking around to find this out for sure. Do i recall reading somewhere harley that you recovered from chronic illness??? If you did, could you provide me a link with some journaling around that time? Or if there is no journal, could you tell me what your recovery was like?

exellent post Kebbster~!

Jim, or anyone else that knows....could you please tell me who is the organic wholesaler mentioned in Sydney?

Thank you!!! :-)

Lovespirit

<<From what ive read of other long term raw foodies, the transition to high fruit, low fat, simple eating seems to happen naturally, it seems like its a natural progression over a number of years. So maybe we shouldnt get too caught up on 811, or if were even 100%, just eat as much raw as you like, whenever you like, enjoy your food, and enjoy the journey.>>

This is an excellent point. I certainly observed that too in myself and others. In my personal experience, the transition to higher in fruit just happens without any particular effort, because it feels good. My husband also is progressing in this direction as well. And, I find that obsessing on only leads to problems and failing, and see no reason for it either, since the alternative is effortless fun.

Gosia

If 811 is promoted as the optimal diet for mankind (and it is yes harls?), then of course anyone not thriving on it has to be, of course..."doing it wrong"....hey and maybe they are.

It doesn't seem to me though that the supposed optimal diet for all mankind can stand much deviation before it stops being so optimal.

I have a number of questions.

I'm asking this sincerely btw (even though from a position of big-time reservations and doubt, sincerely none-the-less).

If the worlds supposedly most optimal diet only "works" within a seemingly very limited "workable" deviation, how has everyone else survived on diets that are very far removed from 811, while a slight deviation from 811 seems to spell disaster?

Is it only just about food intake?

It isn't promoted as just such....that's my perception at any rate. It seems to be the be-all-end-all answer to a whole host of things from disease to longevity to saving the planet...to...well...you name it.

 What you eat is what you are/think etc etc is widely voiced.

Ok...so.....if...for example...811 is indeed the optimal diet for mankind....would not....or should not....we be expecting to see some pretty profound changes in, and influences from, people adopting that diet?

I'd be thinking things like..increased athletic abilty (compared to those not on 811 of equal natural ability), increased mental acuity and insight and clarity. Increased stabilty and "calmness" and resolution of many "emotional type" issues...increased "spirituality" (or at least an increased interest in things that could be termed "spiritual").

I'd be expecting to see these things across the board if diet has the impact (positive or negative) implied.

At the very least....from adopting such a diet I'd expect it to be quite common to see things like:

Dramatically improved focus and concentration.

Reduction of anxiety and stress.

Improved/revived Immune system.

Improved sleep.

Heightened learning ability and creativity.

Anti-aging effect.

Are these things occuring noticeably in those of you using 811 or similar?

By the way the benefits listed above are well proven-documented-tried and tested benefits of....Meditation.

Harls...I'm real interested to hear your thoughts on the above.

John


PS: I should add..i'm really wary of anything being promoted along the lines of "if it ain't werking fer ya...yer doin it wrong" (When the doing it wrong part seems so EASY to "do...."wrong....hmmmmmm)....but that's just me.

I agree with both kebbester and Oxygen!

God gave us such an amazing machine - is able to combat so many stressors, pollution, you name it!!!  Reducing it to 'science' and counting carbs and numbers is just not doing it justice!!!  We should be able to listen to our bodies so that it can tell us what it needs - every day is different!!!  I am wary about a one size fits all diet!  Sure you can read 80 10 10 for a bit of guidance but the rest is up to you!!

My personal opinion - many people i feel are going to become obsessed with eating raw and 'falling off the wagon' that it might create a new generation of eating disorders!!!
There is no wagon to fall off of!!!  Your body is the wagon - you steam some veggies and eat some raw ones and you are happy and fullfilled?? I'd say you might be better off than some raw foodists obsessing about what they can't combine with what so much so that they miss the sunrise and the chirping bird!

Thank you Harley - I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.

awsome

some points i would like to make.
1. those that know calories accurately could read someones' post and find the daily inaccuracy. the ignorant will probably find my whole point rather confusing.

2. nobody, is 100% raw vegan and succeeding in their chosen sport without understanding carb calories and the amount of fruit it takes to consume to reach that amount of daily carbs. NOBODY!
My buddy is fitter than she was as a teenager and thats great. but i know she couldnt ride to work and back no sweat. as ration diets dont give stamina..maybe in 'essene gospbel of peace kung fu breatharian monk folklore' but not in people we personally know.

3. people that say you dont need to count calories so dependent on concentrated foods like nuts, oils, refined sugar, cooked food etc? cos if you took away these things they would have a couple peices of fruit left..

4. i train with world class endurance cyclists. they ALL know caloric content of their chosen foods and how much they need to consume in order to perform.

5. i find it amusing when people say im eating the amount i do for emotional reasons....lol! where were they in the recent 24hr solo xc race i won?..i burned just over 17000cals to win that race. thats what my friend was eating in 12days with my calculations of her caloric intake...so is it eating for emotion? or eating to go the distance?

6. can anyone name a succesful raw vegan leader (whom could actually run 10km in under 45) that DOESNT promote caloric understanding?

7. yes indeed i reccomended my friend to a SUPERVISED fast in costa rica. it involves complete bed rest for up to 3-5 weeks. NOTHING heals like a fast. of course one needs to do the correct things after the fast too. stress is another factor if you have UC. imagine trying to be raw when your partner drinks beer and smokes. i KNOW my friend holds the record for longest time raw whilst being surrounded by nice friends and family yet they are so cooked they have to cook the air they breathe..ie having that continual raw support network is another crucial factor in succeeding on raw. She aint allowed to mingle at her old raw forums, potlucks, shops, haunts etc...thats gotta be stressful. cos no way id still be raw without the continual support i recieve from my direct raw community. having regular contact with like minded peers is ESSENTIAL in any life pursuit. as whom we hang around is whom we become...

8. yes many factors affect our nutrition other than the food we consume. our hydration affects our nutrition, our body fat levels affect our nutrition (more body fat = less nutrition) , our emotional poise effects our nutrition. our rest, sleep, sun, time to ourselves etc all play a massive yet often overlooked part in our nutrition.

9. wary about a one size fits all diet? i would be too! there are thousands of different fruits and tender greens to eat. some people end up in hospital with reactions to bananas initially. (ive never met anyone but heard its possible..) but like anything, we can only know if something works if we follow the correct instructions. .i know a lot more than i did a year ago about optimum nutrition. its been another year on the highway riding thousands of km's of testing what works and what doesnt. not only on my self but on others. letting them be their own test machines and seeing what didnt work for them. ive had some behind the scenes chats with some raw leaders and seen the 'raw wars' going on behind the scenes..lol!

10. i agree god gave us such amazing machines. so amazing im gonna eat the food that god provides. not boiled, broiled, steamed, creamed, zapped, nuked or flapped. just raw plant food in amounts that id find in nature.

11. there is an 1m avocado tree growing 30cm from the main resturant st in adelaide. its in a floral display pot. i put the seed in years ago. didnt push it in...its just a regular composting pot i use..no i cant guarantee any seed i plant wont get chopped. NOBODY can..lol! all we can do is throw our seeds into places that might have a chance...the rain will do the rest. often the best fruits i eat are off dry irrigated wild trees that are unkept...

12. oxygen, yep i and many others have recieved those benefits and more. my history is drug & junk food addict chronic fatigue couch potato to being able to boast that im gonna win the 2008 sa state champs 24hr race before its even started and then i win it..thats confidence in ones health and nutrition and fitness...only when we eat as nature intended can we tap into that sort of innate ability. its never only just about food intake..as the above points indicate.

13. remember im here as example to show people how to be a raw vegan athlete. i know thats not what everyone wants and i wont be chasing you down the street with a box of bananas...but i hear a lot of crew complaining about not having the energy and fuel to go the distance in their daily pursuits. they chase their tails and get caught up in the latest greatest nutritional breakthrough..only to end up where they started. yet a little more confused and bruised. i dont think i have a message to share, i KNOW i have.

above all remember ITS NEVER WRONG TO DO THE RIGHT THING..

Harley how long have you been doing 811- 100% ?

My impression of 811 is it seems very complex. When I believe truth in anything has simplicity in it.

I think it boils down to eating as much sweet fruit and soft greens as you can. How much simpler can it be than that?

It sounds simple when you say it like that. But reading all this talk about not eating enough carbs and calories and doing it right or wrong and hearing of some that have been hospitalised is a bit of a turn off.

If it was so simple how come there is so much to be talked about all from one way of eating raw?

Harley, I know about counting more than an average person, I have a solid background in maths (applied, probability, statistics, operations research etc), have 3 degrees in maths including PhD, some years of research, solution of various problems in real-life environments and published papers, supervision of postgraduates etc. Understanding the calorie count is a no-brainer for me (this is a task I could accomplish before my teenage years), I find it rudimentary maths. I have done some counting, just for fun, and even played with solving some (simple in my view) problems around 811 (some of them posted on this forum, which turned out to be too difficult for others to follow) just for fun, because I love playing with maths, and I could not resist the opportunity. Still, I am absolutely positive that counting calories is absoloutely unnecessary for anyone doing raw food diet (but can be done just for fun and curiosity, as humans often do).

When the idea of 811 first got my attention (which happened after me being raw for quite some time, which is not a mere coincidence), I calculated what I had been eating over some period of time, and it turned out that that it was according to the ratios in 811. Since going raw 5 years ago, I met countless examples of people who have progressed to high-fruit low-fat spontaneously, over some period of time. Bryan from rawfoodsupport has been about 20% fat (after doing raw for some time), stayed like this for  a while, then the % dropped to around 10%, totally spontaneously. Nora Lenz from rawschool has gone through a gradual spontaneous progression. Audrey from rawhealing. Many others that I met. Why does this occurs? Because it feels good, and because when people learn to hear their body natural instincts, and then eventually follow them, it just happens. Fruit tastes good, and high fat does not feel good, so obviously, the natural progression can't be avoided (unless one gives more power to their mind then instincts). So, simply observing the pattern of eating and making a connection with how we feel is sufficient.

From the two alternative way of doing raw:
1) Count calories and try to stick to 811 ratios,
2) Listen to your body and respond to its signals,
I prefer (2). Number (1) is a no-brainer but it ignores the fact that the body knows better than others (who tell you what to do), or you might think. As a result people might do things against their body,  even though they mean well, have best intentions and commitment, and end up in some serious problems (like it did happen on this board). Further, number (1) takes power away from people who are told that someone else knows better than them, and what's good for their body. People are told they are a goner unless they do what they are told (eek!). Number (2) does require some thought, but perhaps most people are capable of it? I would rather focus on developing my ability to respond to the natural instincts that are within me, then follow someone else's prescriptions.

So, if you do feel like counting then, yeah, no problem, do it by all means. But when you insist that all others must do it it too, otherise they are ignorant, or eating a bad diet, then I tell you, you are wrong.

Gosia

This is so true!  Who made Dr. Douglas Graham chief??  But I guess its like with evey new book that hits the shelf - people have to play with it till it breaks (or breaks them!)

I don't know - I can see the logic.

If I ride a bike wrong - I fall off.
If I eat wrong - I feel like crap.

Makes sense.

S.

Doesn't that imply that people succeeding in sports at a high level are conscious of their carbs rather than raw vegans need to be conscious of their carbs?  Most of the 'why do we have to worry about carbs?' comments are not coming from anyone wanting to succeed in their chosen sport, beyond every day life is enough sport (not in a couch potato way but in a living life to the fullest without having to compete in a sport).  People living an active lifestyle can listen to their body, they don't need to think 'I will use this much so I need this many calories', they instinctively know 'I ate enough to feel good yesterday doing that much activity, I'm doing the same today, I'll eat something similar' They're not planning using up their glycogen stores or whatever in some huge effort, they can eat as usual, they don't have to do some big load in advance of what they are about to do, if they end up doing some big activity, they can eat more, their body will tell them to.  

If her family and friends are discouraging her from hanging out with the raw community, I doubt it is because it is raw, it is because she was pretty much suffering from anorexia from undereating for all intents and purposes, and keeping the anorexic from they environment that seemingly promotes it is standard treatment, eg you keep the anorexic off the ana sites etc, you keep them from discussing how little they ate with others that are going to give them positive feedback - it's got nothing to do with raw. To anyone not eating raw, all the 'wow, you are glowing, thriving on raw' comments to photos of skinny women without periods, with excess body hair, with elbows larger than their upper arms,  could very easily be interpreted as an ana site, exactly 'who we hang round with is whom we become'.   It's not some big consipracy threatened by anyone eating raw, it's 'this person is suffering from malnutrition we need to step in, keep them away from people supporting them in the style of eating which is hurting their body'.  I'm not saying your friend was anorexic, I'm saying that it would be quite understandable for the people around her to reach that conclusion and behave accordingly.  

I seem to have come across a whole slew of raw websites this last week where the after photos are someone fairly underweight, even if they are built like a grey hound to start with, with comments like 'I've still got 18lbs to go before I reach my ideal weight' I'm beginning to think raw is the new coverup for ana sites for some people.

Melb, I applaud you for stating this observation.  I have thought the same, and by my counting calories, that actually enforces more of an anorexic/bulimic mentality in me because I am so focused on my body instead of just living and gauging how I feel.  Many people in raw are sooo focused on how they look, and they think that through the body comes spiritual enlightenment.  I thought it was the other way around?  Well, at least it was for me. 

I know Harley will not be budged with his mentality, so I am just addressing Mel here in her astute thoughts.  Since I gained a few pounds since not being so obsessed with my body as I was early last year, I now feel ashamed to say I am a raw vegan because those poster children are all thin.  And, sex is totally interwoven in it, corresponding to being focused on what the eye sees.  It has nothing to do with spirituality unless we finally see the true picture of feeling healthy in a sense of vitality.  Now that I am more aware and grounded in who I am, now I can do raw better, although I will not do it by someone else's standards, for I have found many, wow, way too many leaders in the raw community to be so lacking in other important ways.

Oh, I just want to add that I do think, though, that we can undereat on calories and gain more nutrition on raw.  I also heard from Victoria Boutenko that the higher nutrition means we can eat less.  But then again, she and her family did overall eat more calorically dense, fatty foods, so the few times they ate less must have been counterbalanced by eating more.  I know from my own experience with runner Tim VanOrden that this happened with him when he also said he didn't need to eat so much.  But, maybe he didn't with the amount of running he did.  He ate lots of fat at the time, but now he is eating more fruit, he says.  I don't know the full story now.

When I first started raw here I was counting calories. I've done it again a few times since and it never fails to take me back to a painful time when I had an eating disorder. Without fail I feel anxiety when I do it.

At the same time it's difficult to listen to our bodies when we first go raw. I was having a chat with Karenlovesraw the other day and we discussed that when we first go raw our bodies are shouting out for what it's addicted to. Cravings...
I craved cheese so I learned to make raw cheese, dairy free, of course. But I have listened to my body for ages and it's still craving high fats.

I have lowered my fat intake and upped my veges instead of fruits. My belly is no where near as bloated, and my skin is clearing. I have learned the wrong way to do raw. So I'm changing. Awesome!

Neet is allowed here. She is regaining her health doing what she is doing. Gaining muscle, losing fat. There are plenty of rawbies that she is still in touch with. Neet doesn't come to the forum much for personal reasons. There are other places that she also avoids for personal reasons. But it's her descision. No one else's. She has shared so much of herself here and given much as well. She deserves some respect. I applaud her.

xoxoxo

If actually "counting calories" is a necessary component to successfully adopt and utilise what is supposedly mankinds el-primo diet....well....I must be missing something here....

What's "natural" about counting what you eat?

What's "necessary" about it?

I can understand it from an elite athlete viewpoint...as in necessary to them  ....but how does that same logic and necessity transfer to anyone who isn't a full-on athlete?

If 811 works...then it should work at any level of activity naturally .

On the one hand we have the "argument" that people have survived and thrived without the blessing of 811 because the human machine is so remarkable and adaptable. Well how's this for a possible counter-view...people have survived (dunno about thrived unless ya get it "just so" ) on 811 only because of the adaptability of the human body.

Now...

Are not both views equally as extreme as each other?

I don't see a lot of tolerance, let alone encouragement, for those who simply wanna improve their life and health by adopting a high raw diet and adding a bit of excercise to their daily lives.

And if 5,000 people did that I'd consider that of vastly more importance and impact than..say...6...people who "mastered" 811....

John

Well, I'm going to inteerrupt this dissection of 811 to ask Harley's advice regarding 811 and breastfeeding as I've found myself having to eat this way for Bhala's health. Here are the first 2 entries from my Journal for those who have not read it:

"I've realised that I have to stick to raw for my new baby girl's sake whilst I'm breastfeeding. and I'm sure after a few years of raw breastfeeding I will be so used to being raw there's no way I'll go back to crappy cooked food.

I have been mostly 100% raw since before her birth...and then when I've had a bit of cooked food on the occasional day, my poor baby has suffered bad gas pains and explosive poos and general lethargy and irritability. And her skin on her face and scalp and neck and groin break out in a pimply rash if I have any nuts or seeds.  So I've been eating lots of greens (can't get enough at present) and drinking barley grass and other veg juices and she thrives on it...and so do I. I'm actually not as into fruit as I normally am...just feed me greens!!  And it's much easier to do broken sleep and lots of breastfeeding on the raw diet than on the days when I eat some cooked as I am left feeling so tired and grumpy myself it's hard to be a good mum.

So the decision has been made that this has to be done for my daughter and for myself...and for my son and partner so that I have nough energy left each day for them too. And I've been inspired by DR and FreeLea and others to make sure I get some exercise everyday also as it makes a big difference to how I feel too.

I have worried a few times if I can get all I need whilst breastfeeding so that she gets all that she needs, and then this morning I realised that our society is addicted to cow's milk and what do cow's eat...green grass! And they make all that "healthy, nutritious, nutrient rich" milk that beefs up their baby calf's and fattens up human's. So green's and barley grass juice...here I come 

Wish me luck and I hope some of you come and support me on my journey.

Love Georgia the Human Cow"

"I'm sure all mum's try to do what's best for their children. I'm struggling with the raw thing as I'm so addicted to cooked foods and I'm finding that I'm fine in the mornings and all day up till late arvo when I start to feel ravenous and want to eat cooked food!! After reading a lot of Harley's posts about 811 i'm realising I need to eat more fruit during the day or make juices if I can't handle eating more fruit as I just feel starving by late arvo and that's when I want to grab cooked carbs like roast potatoes...as I did this arvo!! So I can either bash myself up about it or I can forgive myself for being less than perfect and go make a juice...I'm craving carrot juice at present so think I'll make one as a chaser for my barley grass juice...bleurgh! I know it's good for me but I can't handle the flavour alone! And wheat grass..can't go their...it's nauseating!! 

I was far from 100% raw this preg and my health suffered for it but now I know I want the energy and health to enjoy my daughter and my older son and want them to grow up knowing that raw is best. And this rash and the gas pains my daughter's been getting have been a big in my face motivator to pick up my act and break through my addictions to cooked foods and to high fat raw. The funny thing is with all this 811rv controversy on the forum it looks like this is the way I'm going to have to eat. AS Avocado seems to be the only high fat food I can eat without her reacting...so nuts and seeds are out the door for now. Just having lots of greens (inc. juices) and fruits and an avocado a day. So instead of being an 811rv athlete I'm an orgainc 811 RV mobile 24/7 milkbar. She'll be getting the best milk on the block.

Now I just have to get over the emotional addiction to heavier foods and it'll all be good!"

So Harls...do you think that 811 breastfeeding will be sustainable and do you know anyone else doing it or who has done it? Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated?

Thanks,
Georgia :)

Just wanted to ask you how long had you been raw before your eyes changed to blue and was it on 100% raw?  I believe that's a sign that you body had detoxed/ healed?

where is the modify button? i cant see it so someone please edit out the bits that were inappropiate. thanks.

neet and myself and the rest of the rawdelaide raw crew are all good buddies. we learn from each others results. i thought id highlight factors outside our food choices that affect our overall health. and in hindsight it would have been better to use an example that nobody knew. its just that people keep asking me where is neet? people expect my opinion since im so passionate about the raw lifestyle. so please erase.

why count calories? a question i asked myself. countng calories to me always attached jenny craig tv jingles as a child. as an athlete it means the difference between crossing the line with low blood sugar or contesting the sprint. as someone that relies on their legs to run/ride for transport its the difference in gettng A to B no probs.

i dont do raw for weight loss. i do it for health. i recomend people walk away from sedentary and into athletic abundance. where you eat to increase performance instead of eat to loose weight cos your lifestyle is so sedentary.

if walking is so simple why does it take us so long to master? cos as babies we have no walking references initially. and as cooked fooders we have no references as to how much fresh fruit we need to consume to give us the same amount of calories some cooked carbs did...people can eat a tray of tim tams but get full on 2 bananas. so that is why we need to initially count calories to ensure we are eating enough so we dont fall back to cooked carbs. that is if 100% rv is our goal.

rg, what types of cooked foods and what types of raw foods have made up most of your calories this month?

sacha, it aint complex, its super simple yet easy to overlook the common mistakes that people make and end up at 'start again'. i learnt 811 in 06. yet it was only mid october last year i started truly walking my talk. july last year i had by last bit of salt, vinegar, seaweed and oil. so not very long at all. 100% raw vegan for 2 years exactly before i commited to 811. and this short 7 month period my b12 serum quadrupled, eyes got bluer still, and v02max went up again. etc etc. and for the record i dont think eye colour changes for everyone nor means that much. ive heart of cancer patients with the prettiest blue eyes around..

oxygen, see it as food rehab for a society that bases its attachment to food as emotional and induced by advertisement. you need to re-educate people on how much natural goodness they need to fuel the day. and yes your right, everyone, including athletes do better on increasing carbs and decreasing fats. people get more fuel and oxygen to the cells and life is just easier. its not required to count longterm, just enough to gain new personal references on the amounts of fresh  produce needed to fufill basic human nutrtion. cos after all, people are eating industrial waste products and animals passed off as food. people are eating things we simply would recoil in disgust in nature..ie we have been deeply programmed, become blind and being led by the short sighted. its time we had someone with vison to backlight the way up and out of the dark ages of nutrition.

weight loss is one of the biggest industries in the world. people are counting calories and still not getting results. that is cos they arent doing the most healtful things the body desires. only then will we reach optimum health, fitness and THEN body compostion.

NEVER count calories to loose weight. thats the lack mentality. anything to try to loose will just try and stick closer to you. always count calories to ensure enough premium unleaded to fuel the lifestyle that melts the false body once and for all. as your false body could be a  40kg frame of chronic fatigue or 240kg of obesity. eating enough sweet and juicy sugar fuel will provide you with the ability to kickstart and maintain a lifestyle that allows for peak physical development in your choosen field.

as for breast feeding..doug's wife roz still breastfeeds faye age 3. roz is a long term low fat 100% rv fruit bat.

some crew feel threatend by 811. ive been banned on a few forums. but all they had to do was check dougs own forum! lol! the meat eaters outnumber the 811ers 100 -1! lol!
811 will never take off. i know that for sure. society is to dependent on adrenal flogged workhorses doing anything it takes to keep the cooked lifestyle going. there are too many addictions for us to give up. too many trillion dollar industries that rely on our natural way of eating being continuly debunked by scientists whom sold out to the almighty dollar.

a society where men dominate and women have not been raised to quesiton the desires of men - rather only to honor them..
a society where chefs are praised for their ability to turn a piece of murdered animal into dainty edible art.
a society that as children, before conformity caught a hold of us, we knew who we were and what we loved...
a society where people spend more time locked behind security doors than outdoors.
a society where the earth and its animals are valued more as stock. where profits come before people.
a society that could be turned magical overnight if people ate as nature intended. yet people are terrifed at this answer or cant believe its simplicity...

Harley - that was a really solid post.   :thumbup:

On the issue of people feeling "threatened" by 811 - I can only speak for myself when I say....

For reasons that you mentioned in your own post (and many more), raw is often a very difficult journey, especially if one is interfacing with the "normal" world on a daily basis. 

And so every ounce of encouragement is welcome when one is doing one's best, and taking steps towards greater levels of health. 

It can be discouraging at times, when a person is doing what they can (right here, right now), to feel as if they are the new kid in school who is perpetually shadowed by the school prefects.  :laugh:

Yes, that was a very good post, H.  I like the terms "false body" as we usually just think of the false mind.  It translates to everything--emotions and also spirituality.  I also like how you said that health comes before body composition.

To the true people!
Theresa

Got a lot from that post Harls. In fact I get a lot more from your posts when you go a bit deeper into explanations instead of punchy one or two liners.

Gives a different insight into you and what your "on about"....lol.

John

on the calories note:
i see it different , and what if a cetain point we're all going to 'experience' it different....?

excerpt from the 'Essene Gospel of Peace Kung Fu Folklore Book 1':
'Oridnary humans nourish themselves only with solid, liquid and gaseous elements. And what do they do with the fourth element, light?

and yes, i know - go and tell it to 'ordinary people' that scare at the idea of having fruit for breakfast and lunch,,,, not an easy one... 

How is 811 in anyway complex?  its the most least complex of all forms of eating raw.  You eat all the fruit you care for, followed by all the vegetables you care for.

No gourmet recipe books and elaborate packaged and bottled ingredients needed.

With all this calorie debate perhaps people are getting confused looking beyond the simplicity of it all.

To function a sedentary person needs x amount of calories per day to run their body.  Lets say x is 1300 calories.
On raw you can get these calories through fruit or you can get them from an overt fat.

If you are a competitive athlete, or even want to function on some kind of athletic level you need more calories than the sedentary figure.  Lets say you do a half an hour work out per day, plus lots of daily chores and tasks that involve walking, driving and so forth.   Maybe then your requirements might be 2200 calories.  This equates to 22 bananas at 100 calories each, just for a non competitve person.  With the training harley does he must consume copious amounts of fruit to thrive - this is all he is pushing forward as his facts.

The majority of the raw movement are consuming their calories in fat.   Doug and Harley are simply bringing to light that the experts all recommend for optimal body performance no more than 10% of calories should be coming from fat.

If you want to know the science behind why excessive fat beyond 10% impairs optimal human performance then read Doug's book.  Its quite obvious those if you think about it, fat is an insulator and fat in the bloodstream will insulate suger and everything else in there, impairing optimal uptake of sugar to the cells.

The reason Harley highlights counting calories is without doubt the biggest reason people fail on 811 is they are unaware of the exact calories they are getting from fruit, and are on occasion eating far less than they require even for being sedentary, yet they are also active.  They may think they are eating HEAPS of fruit, but when you do the math they realise, its not calorie sufficient.

This starvation of sufficient calories either leads to hitting the fats and feeling less than optimal, or being tired because they are not consuming sufficent fuel so the body has to hit the fat stores and use further resources to convert fat to simple sugar fuel.  Eventually the gig is up and the person think 811 failed me, when in fact they failed 811.

Essentially you only need to briefly check the calories you are getting in from fruit at the start to understand exactly the amount of fruit you actually do require. Most people are shocked at the volume they haven't been eating and NEED to eat to make 811 successfully work.

If you're not prepared to eat the quantity to make 811 work then thats fine, it doesn't mean the diet deserves a bad wrap.  It should only get a bad wrap if it doesn't work when it is applied correctly and thus far I have yet to see evidence, nor has doug in 30 years, had evidence come up that dispute the science he presents on what is optimal for human performance.

Also if you are attempting to do 811 but still occasionally bingeing on cooked food or overt fats then you are keeping fat levels in your blood and impairing the success and wellbeing of the 811 approach.  You either go all the way with 811 or not.  If you are consuming more than 10% calories from fat, then I highly recommend not consuming high fruit because you are simply setting the stage for blood sugar metabolism issues - like candida.  Do the david wolfe or gabriel cousens methods, but don't expect to have the energy to thrive like Harley.

Also you don't need to eat the amount harley does unless you train like harley.  811 proportion never changes, the more you do the more calories you need.  But for sedentary and semi-athletic people they still need more than they generally think.

Jim - are you still doing superfoods & herbs etc.?  I know a few months back doing 811 was causing you digestive problems.  Have these sorted themselves out?

I am back hardcore 811 and have been for almost a month now.  The digestive distress was caused by overeating too fast. I could never eat watermelon, but if I slow and eat it properly without scoffing it down I am ok.  Also I was drinking 10 banana smoothies in less than 5 minutes which was too harsh on my delicate digestive system.  Ultimately I was never giving it a chance to repair itself.

I also just wanted to try the other types of raw (having come into raw on 811) so I knew for myself whether they worked for me or not.  I didn't expect them to work better but I wanted to know the feeling so I could at least argue with people about it having had the experience.  I feel far better being on 811, and more comfortable with the straight up and obvious scientific explanations of it all.     I was not seeing enough or any science on the other higher fat raw eating that made me feel at odds with anything doug was saying.

On the david wolfe stuff I felt ok on a general basis, but my athletic aspirations were completely affected.  I ran out of steam pretty quickly.  I also had more cooked food binges and body odour returned.

I'm unsure about effectiveness of herbs but I am now fully doing natural hygiene again and am happy to support the belief that only the body will cure the body.   Not some unnatural concoction of rare plants and trees.

For the first time in 6 months, I am returning to where I was feeling best I ever felt on raw.  In the last week I feel I am surpassing it all and feeling the best ever - coinciding with some further enlightment and spiritual awakening.

That's great news.....and a very sound approach, to boot!

i so want to be raw for so many reasons...yet feel so weak coz I succumb to the cooked foods i'm addicted to. how did you overcome your addictions Harley?

nice post jim, thanks for sharing.

how i walked away from being a cooked fooder? well one day after eating out at a vegan resturant i woke up yet again feeling cooked. i looked in the mirror and said something like 'what are you doing to yourself? you know that cooked garbage is dangerous, just look at everyone in society and their cooked pets..you wanna contribute to that? to the animal rights crimes that are grain crops? to the unethical wastage of fuel to cook food and render it nutritionally devoid?....'

i know i have a higher purpose in life. to continue numbing myself with the second best wasnt it. i had to find a way to stay raw. i had to understand basic human physiology and what i needed to fuel myself so that discipline just wasnt a factor. and i can honestly say that i dont use discipline to stay 100% raw vegan since that morning in oct 2005. its just that i learnt how to eat enough fruit to keep my hands grabbing cooked carbs.

you dont see athletic raw folk that dont have a healthy sweet fruit consumption habit. yesterday i did 110km on the bike. rode home up this super steep climb called the corkscrew. absolutely cruized up it. ive riden that hill for over 10 years and last night was the easiest. cos my legs are just getting the carbs they crave. cycling has become so easy i have to make a conscious effort to try in races. cos im so focused on making everything so easy for my body, i forget that sometimes you have to push so hard you feel battery acid in your blood and feel as if your near cardiac arrest. only then are we experiencing our true potential...

i get so hungry...especially the day after a race. this morning i rolled out of bed and onto my bike and to the organic shop and grabbed exactly 6kg of sweet valencias. then lunch was 2kg super ripe persimmons the gooey type. then dinner was 2 lettuces, 2 stalks of celery and 400 grams of alice springs dates. thats close to 5000cals today. i feel so nourished, recharged and ready to roll again once the sun says gday. no hill seems to steep. no distance to far, as long as we provide the body the conditions it needs to thrive...

its no suprise that people in direct contact with me set personal bests in cycling. from absolute beginer to seasoned A grader.
its the same with raw, there are little tips to share. things ive covered all before. things you need to cover to stay raw. otherwise we just keep slam'n our fingers in that cooked food door...

and people ask me what supplements i take cos i dont eat dead animals, bird menstrations or mammary secretions. they are like 'well you gotta balance out your lentils, grains and nuts then eh? they step back in suprise when i tell em im against supplements. that im FOR finding out the cause. most b12 cases i see is people on high fat diets and they are blocking the b12 absorption sites. most problems i see with iron is lack of sunshine. most problems i see with calcium is acid forming diet, lifestyle and attitude. so we we pop pills made in 1967 or eat whole, fresh, ripe, raw, organic plant foods in the proper amounts...

one of my mates said 'you cant do raw vegan..the fruit doesnt have all the minerals in it..' im like 'what over plant has tap roots that go down 100 metres or more? funny how he drinks beer...must be the minerals.

i ask the question 'where you get your plant sterols from?' cos these disipate a few hours after pick'n. but we dont see that advertised on tv so nobody cares much..lol!

this week im gonna ring up australias leading bakery chains and ask em how old was the grain in this 'fresh' loaf i got the phone number from?
im gonna find out how old the oil was that made a packet of tim tams with the 1 year expiry date...

its so funny..people eating rancid beyond rancid oils, rodenticided grains, milk that contains blood cell counts from hundreds to thousands of different cows...and yet, the same cooked crew say your gonna go deficient if you follow what has worked for other raw crew and what is set out in nature....yeah right. those people that complain..they are always the ones that never try anything. they get to the end of  this life and go 'oh no, that was my life, WHAT WAS I THINKING!'

today i was outside the organic shop chomp'n celery and this dude rolls up on a motor scooter. he was obese. i said to me friend that he will come out of the deli with some sort of cooked carb. yet i had never seen this man before, i still knew what he was going in for...the vibe and transport said everything. sure enough he came out with 4 packets of noodles and another plastic bag to store the plastic wrapped plastic food to fuel a plastic life.  walking to and from his motor was hard yakka and poor champ was puffing like the saucepan steaming over full of noodle. i couldnt recomend he come into the organic shop and get a good deal on some sweet fruit . no, that would be telling someone what to do. its not like the tv adds lied to him and everyone with their fun noodle jingle. those noodles were never fun, they are just opiate food grade crack with salt and msg. thats stuff is harder than herion. its not only accepted in society its encouraged and