mmm, interesting. I did find this site because I got fed up with my old favorite site because we weren't even allowed to speak of 811, or any other doctrine of raw food eating if it questioned the owner of the site's book and philosophy. Which from a business perspective that makes sense, but not for my personal exploration and growth.

I look forward to when Harley 'gets off his ass'. Such a wordsmith, lol.

How about when this blog is set up (or whatever), a link be posted here? Would that be fair?

....and here I thought my debating prowess left him speechless....

Well I don't question the outdoors lifestyle as much as I do the lack of shade. If we didn't chop down all the shade trees...ie, fruit trees, we wouldn't need sunglasses, gazebos, awnings, umbrellas and all that crap. I think we were meant to have it all. Outdoors And Shade. I love Shade. Subdivisions might as well be deserts to me....except with houses, and people. With cute little baby trees, pruned just so at birth, so no child will ever be able to reach a branch and feel the joy of climbing to the top. ....ok....enough said about shade. ....feeling kind of weird and sick tonight, burning my hand in the fire I guess it's called.

Well...I am actually done with this forum thing, but first, lol....yes, textbooks are weird places, that offer plenty of great things, often backed up by science right there, but you do need to think critically and keep on your toes....as with everything.

As for Harley, and your post on kids. While this approach could be seen as coersion and not dictatorship, which is good... and I do agree it would be very effective in the moment (the week), sort of...depending on the kid, I do see some problems.
 
In no particular order of priority they would be that some kids, actually a lot of kids I know up close (which is a lot of kids as my house is a revolving door of kids around the neighbourhood for the last almost twenty years), Do in fact have hangups. In fact, I think kids can have more hangups than adults, since having travelled outside their comfort zone so much Less in life. I know kids who are such picky eaters that one will only eat french fries. McD's french fries, and that's IT. For YEARS. His brother, eats only rice. Sure they are extreme examples, but a lot of kids are leading way too catered to lives with respect to food....I guess is my point. There would be a lot crying by a lot of kids if you had them for a week. And even if you were tough enough to 'starve them out' whose to say that they won't regress as soon as they are out of your range? .....although they might also be the most likely Not to stray too....anyways, point is, I don't think they would be more perceptive or receptive than adults necessarily.

Another problem, watching earthlings over and over. I showed my 9 and 11 yr old that movie, but I knew they were old enough, one became vegetarian on the spot, the other did for awhile. The 6 year old couldn't even stand to hear a summary of what it was about. Ofcourse I wouldn't show it to her....if you show that to whatever kid, you will be giving some of these kids some serious problems. Nightmares upon nightmares for one. But also a fear of the world in general. Anxiety problems....or exacerbating already existing anxiety problems. Problems that they do not have the resources or intellect to deal with. So I actually thinks that's abusive and I would suggest considering possible consequences carefully.

Lastly, if these kids go back to SAD eating homes, they have no overt control over their lives, unless their parents are special people, and will end up fighting a battle that they have no idea how to fight. How are they going to answer questions like protein and b12 and iron and calcium. In their heads they will know that their example Harley is doing fine, but that won't stand up for a second in the family arena....they might manage to stay veg. But they aren't buying the groceries. Which is why I said those picky eaters might fair the best, since they're parents are totally whipped anyway.

But, you said yourself you've seen Doug help people recover only to go back to their old ways once they're in their old environment. ....I'm afraid the kids won't stand a lasting chance. But I do think you would plant an effective seed that will pay off when they grow up.

Anyways, that's about it I guess....

oh sorry, yes....the woman outside all her life was the ooooold looking one. she didn't look unhealthy, just 'weathered'. skin like leather.

is the husband darker? just a guess as to why.

ofcourse those textbook pics are hardly scientific even if they are in a textbook. but I do buy into it, all the farmers I know have that same weathered look.

hmm it never occured to me that vegans by choice would look differently at vegans by religion...but I agree, and I am Very glad to hear that you care about the thought process. I wasn't sure there for a minute when you said you would convert a kid to raw by removing all the cooked food from their grasp...

....not that I disagree with that approach necessarily, but I do struggle with that whole arena as I previously explained.

So you say a vegan society is 'better' but not best. I think I can live with that but you didn't address whether or not you agree that the world can recover environmentally without us all being 811rv. ....and probably culturally/socially too.

Anyways....I really need to lay off this forum thing for awhile....too busy. (But not in that over-stressed, body polluting, greedy kind of way....the kind I love....kids, summer, courses, staring off into space, singing badly, you know).

Oh, and by the way, one of my textbooks has a picture of two old women of the same age, one looks 50 and one looks ancient. They said the only real difference in their lifestyles were that one spent most of her life outside.

ok, no I'm not talking about enslaving animals for food....let's for arguments sake say... everyone is vegan, Very Vegan. lol. Let's say that this happened by choice, since it just became so socially unacceptable as more and more people became vegan. Kind of like how smoking is today and continues to become.

So noone is eating or using animals...and they chose this lifestyle themselves...not that you care about that part I'm guessing, but I am all about freedom and choice and against dictatorships as a rule.

Next, everything is by law or peer pressure or by technology, recycled, reused, and power is sustainable.

Ok, first you say 'we don't have enough resources or need for anyone to be cooking food....then you say 'there is simply zero need' which are two different things but you said it in such a way as to imply rewording for emphasis.

zero need, I can agree with. zero resources to cook food.....  ...as we said all sources of power are sustainable in this psuedo world. My stove might be solar powered. Or I might roast some veggie dogs on a stick by a naturally occuring forest fire. Or sun dry, or boil something in some hot spring somewhere. We have sustainable resources already invented and it's not that far-fetched that they will become implemented 'before the world is destroyed'.

I'm just thinking...I think we can save the world without us all being 811 athletes. I just can't buy into a world where the slightest step outside 811 will destroy the planet. It just sounds too sensational.

People have been cooking their food for probably millions of years or something.....although maybe that's what happened to the dinosaurs. The environment continued to be splendid the whole time.

I guess my ultimate point of pondering all this would be that People Need Freedom and Liberty to Choose things about their personal life. EVEN if They die the sooner for it. So long as they aren't causing anyone else harm. People can live till 120 and still eated cooked food anyway. So why is it such a crime to allow for some dietary freedom....if it's not necessarily destroying the world. Or hurting animals.

I just think While 811 is perhaps ideal, and if it was eventually the average diet and lifestyle, you'll still find people eating god-made green onions or drying tomatoes in the sun....and shouldn't That be good Enough already??

I did! waaaaay back on pg 31, lol.
...and just for the record it's a geniune question.   

oh now I get it....he is laying all this on people who are trying to just mind their own business? yes...that won't work.

Harley...what if everything was switched over to environmentally friendly, sustainable practices. Cars were zero emissions, everthing was recycled, they switched to that biodegradable plastic, electricity was solar-powered or wind powered or whatever.

And everyone was atleast vegetarian/vegan and just A Lot raw.

So here we have a situation where the world is no longer being destroyed. Sure individual choices will affect Their lifespan, but only theirs alone.

Shouldn't we just use our technological prowess to our environmental advantage....? ...and then not force everyone to be 811 athletes? .


...cuz you know you wouldn't be winning all the races then!

Thanks raw sensation...I enjoy your posts as well!

Once my sister was working out a lot and was talking about how she feels more muscular. She was eating at the time and I could see her jaw muscles working away and I said 'ya, even your head looks more muscular' and I laughed teasingly....well I didn't know it till months later when she finally told me that it made her so upset!

In our house, we have a running sarcastic criticism of each other....we get the truth out in jest. We laugh hysterically about how we drive each other nuts! When I get fed up I love telling him that I am 'virtually' jump kicking him in the face right now....we think it's great fun. ....my sister, not so much! apparently...lol.

I do think people take things too personally. ...and no I am Not defending Harley...but I Do buy into that particular notion. And having also read a New Earth, I think people take things personally the more they are identified with their egos. Obviously!

...so what do you do, desensitize them or spoil them. I am getting less and less interested in tiptoeing around this world, I'll say that.

Harley doesn't bother me a bit...but it could be because he has the same style as my dear brother who has schizophrenia, lol. Only my bro is much worse.... the most vulgar things at the most inappropriate times.

Perhaps Harley could be gentler or something....but perhaps people could also be a little hardier too. Some people hold NO punches. While others run crying at the teensiest things. They would make a great couple. And no I am not joking! The weaker one would Have to get tougher, and the tough one would have to tone things down. I used to be sooooo sensitive....thought the solution was to have a big scary man to fight my battles for me. I didn't have enough foresight at the time to think what I would do when we fought with each other! Funny now....wasn't funny then At All.

If Harley went and made someone cry with his style, would he look them in the face and be gentle and apologetic? Would he be humbled and introspective? Probably....And the crier would also recognize a desire to be stronger.

Reminds me of Tiger Woods all this...he took the first how many times in a row and then was in a slump for a number of years and now he's back and better than ever. I watched a documentary on him and he said that although he was great initially, better than everyone else, he was perceptive enough to see the writing on the wall, and that he wouldn't be able to outperform unless he changed his entire technique. Those slump years, as disappointing as they were performance-wise were because he was learning a completely new style of striking at the ball....he went from expert right back to novice...and now it's paying back in dividends!

I think we all need to be willing to hack our selves back to nothing and completely rebuild and not just continue riding the same train because we have some much personal investment in it. I think rather ironically that that is what Harley is encouraging all of us to do, but here's the thing. If you want Harley to have more of a buddhist approach with people ie. no pushing, no confrontation, patience, lead by example, wait for them to come to you, he would really struggle with it not only internally, but also in his technique, sure maybe he can do it occasionally, but to be reserved, would be to ask him to be someone he just isn't. Perhaps if he did some silent retreat or some other process that involved stripping away everything he has built up and starting from scratch he would be able to get to a new even better place delivery-wise.

On the other hand, the world takes all kinds and I wonder if everyone was reserved in delivery, what kind of world would that be? I know I would be the first one to step up and shake the pot as loudly as I could, and I wouldn't even care if I knew what I was talking about, I would just need to see some Colour....what would happen if I did this!

But one thing I do see, is that if you put too much pressure on people to change, they will find it overwhelming and end up regressing, or yo-yoing. Or developing eating disorders. Or release tonnes of stress hormones into their system nulling any dietary progress they made in exchange. I am Very undecided when it comes to changing my kids diets for example. I give them information and I lead by example. One of the six is vegetarian, some are flexatarians with veg aspirations, their dad isn't very exclusive in his diet, loves steak and fruit and chips too! If I were to enforce such changes, that would be the end of my family unit. The end of the kids stability in life. The end of happiness as they know it! They'd be bouncing back and forth between two homes...one week eating all the meat their dad could stuff into them because he's rebelling against me, the next week having none of the desserts they are accustomed to.

Point is, I love Harley's unwaivering aggresive style but I think he should accept and promote the benefits of baby steps. And broaden what he thinks is acceptable (for the general population), even to atleast 20% fat....or say it's ok to snack on a green onion leaf.

Also, my not-husband fixed my bike..but I think I need to do something about the seat. He wouldn't be impressed if I bought a new one (not that I ultimately care about that!), he prefers to find things and fix them. He is kind of a scavenger that way, something I admire tremendously. Heck his first bike he had to build himself out of dumpbikes! When he was 12! ...up till then it was a tricycle and borrowed bikes...so needless to say, he's rather hard-wired on that.

Thanks for the suggestion dragonfly, I think eating small amounts throughout the day would work much better. Otherwise I'm going with the avocado dressing business....not that I'm even all raw at this point anyway. But I am officially not regressing past vegan!

So last night I ate some baby spinach, chip-eating style. They were good till about the tenth leaf....then the bitterness kicked in. Same deal with celery. Gets nasty, shiveringly bitter after a very short while.

sorry to bother you again...

but how do you eat greens just plain? do you just sit down and munch on baby spinach leaves as if they were chips or something? Why don't you mix fruit with greens?

and wondering what are say your top 5 books you think people should read...

I went for a long all terrain bike ride last night.... and realized amongst the beauty and poison ivy that my bikes Sucks ....nevermind smashing the handlebars, I was ready to smash the whole damn thing.

Well thanks guys....I don't feel so skeptical now...I guess I should read the book.

Just to say, he might not do so well ending up on Oprah...she got sued for hosting some health guy who said limit your beef consumption and she said 'ok, I won't eat any more beef'....so the entire beef industry collectively sued her. Now she makes jokes about how she is clearly not saying that, when she talks about red meat and 'limiting consumption'.

Also if you turn into that blonde stage surfer with the flashing lights, I might be sick.

And KUDOS to you sw...very inspiring progress!