hey miss g
thanks for your reply 
yes 'judgement' is passed around a bit and yes i, like a lot of people, can be hypocritical, I know, but its only when we are aware of said characteristics that we can act to change them - however, on with my rant (which is aimed at no-one in particular)

My point with regards to numbers was made with those people with whom i deal with as a trainer myself, whose lives appear to be ruled by numbers and what this has the possibility to do to them mentally. Also to those raw foodists who seem use percentages as a way to create status for themselves within this small community.

Everyday, people join gyms in the hopes of attaining access to that elusive 'normal' or 'perfect' category. I, personally, do advocate raw-foodism and veganism to achieve peak results in the gym but I choose not to engage in debate about such lifestyles or eating practices with those whose minds are currently closed to such ideas. I'll just try to plant a seed of thought and allow them to do with it what they please. I’ve occasionally spoken to other trainers, clients and even family members who cannot grasp nor fathom the benefits of raw, however, in saying that, I don’t believe I am superior to those who choose not to embrace my ideas on the subject, and would defiantly not engage in putting someone down when there backs are turned because of what some say is 'ignorance' with regards to this topic to satisfy my own ego - after all, my opinion is my own and it is not my objective to 'convert' or people.

However, after reading through the other topics on this site as well as others with regards to raw food, i cant help but notice how much underlying animosity there seems to be amongst this would-be thriving minority. We all idealistically want to educate the world, our families and our friends about the benefits raw, we may even want it to be known that we're not all necessarily unwashed hippies who don’t know the first thing about peak nutrition or the capabilities of the human body. That being said - being a newbie to this site - an outsider looking in - I cant help but say to a small group of people here:

 "get off your high horses and embrace everyone who is or trying to be raw. "Cooked" shouldn’t be dirty word and it is my opinion that your or their percentage means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. Should we not try to focus on individual health and well-being instead of on an almost unattainable and possibly unsustainable "100% raw organic" mentality which can easily be transformed into a " oh no I had a cooked potato i cheated it's all too hard" mentality. Instead, maybe we should focus on praising individual bests, thus encouraging more people to actually speak on forums without fear of being persecuted for eating a slice of bread, and abstain from elitist, moralistic, martyring."

 At the end off the day percentages mean nothing, its the intention that counts.

haha thanks miss g
i have a tendancy to get lost in my own thoughts when i write and thus my words dont come out as clearly as i would hope
so thanks for re reading my post

Hi veganwolf and welcome.

 Somehow I agree with some of what you wrote. There are people on this board who worry me greatly. However there are others I love dearly and no matter what they write, I will still love them.
 
I am happy to say that I am unique and what applies to me personally, probably does not apply to anyone else here. I agree that there is a lot of elitism in this movement and I guess that some consider me a stalwart, simply because I have been on this path for a long time. The only reason for that is that I am older than everyone on this board and the  reason I even went down this path was to save my own life. There is nothing altruistic in that and nothing that should be applauded.

As far as I am concerned if a person thinks they are a raw fooder, then they are one, whether they eat raw food or not. Who am I to say if you eat a slice of toast, then you are not a 'real raw foodist.  Sheesh, that is one of my pet  hates. No one has the right to foist their opinions onto me.

People here often use numbers to explain simply where they are on this journey. Some are perfect, some are not. I am most of the time, but I was the person that ate 2 cooked potatoes and  can I assure you that I dealt with one of the replies offline. In my opinion that is where it should have been dealt with, not here out in the open.

Many of us have worked very hard to get this forum up and running. Including one or two that I find tiresome. I believe that their heart is in the right place and they are dealing with the world the best way they can. You will find we all come from very different cultural and socio-economic backgrounds. So naturally enough, we have different personalities and different traits.

There are also gender differences too. Yesterday I told a very dear friend of mine that I thought he was over complicating an issue. Some may have taken offence at this, he didn't. That is because we have built up a relationship solely though our posts. I may never meet this person, yet he is important in my life. This could only occur because this site exists.

I do not eat organic foods simply because I cannot afford to. However I applaud those who consider it a priority. Perhaps if I was in a more secure place, I would too. That does not mean that no one else should discuss the importance of eating organic.

I hope you can look past our preoccupation with numbers and even our assumed elitism because I have enjoyed reading your post and I especially like a well argued discussion.

I  think most of us try to be positive and encourage each other on this journey. This is not a spiteful board and for that I give thanks. Nor have we ever had any trolls either. Or if we have they have been dealt with behind the scenes by our moderators.

As I said before, welcome and I hope I see you around here for some time as I would love to learn more about you.

In Friendship,

Joss

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mwaaaaah harrrr harrr,you are a comedian MR.WOLF...

shooting straight from the hip i believe,mmmm a refreshing new addition i feel that our lovely "friendly" little minority forum will benefit from..like Joss,i haven't noticed any overt hostilities here,hey maybe sometimes i am concerned also with one or 2 ,but overall it's a positive zingy experience to come on here and mingle and chat...and in all fairness i really think it is difficult without the physical body being seen,tone of voice ect ect,and just taking on the one dimensional aspect of words on a screen...

hey but it's all good,we are all coming from our own personal direction,with various illness cured and what not from eating all raw or even a little bit raw,hey i can be very anal and rahh rahh in my beliefs in the healing ability of eating raw vegan,only because of my own fortunate experiences of healing my body with eating raw,and not being chronically ill anymore...so i guess that can make me a raw believer in the biggest sense of the word! and i love to help and encourage others in their raw journey,hey if someone wants to eat a lamb chop,go for it,it's not the ultimate for your health,but whatever makes you happy....my personal deterrent is that i cannot digest cooked food without terrible side effects,,,so loving my illness keeps me raw and healthy..

keep posting,we all enjoy a vital lively communication here...

Its really very hard to be following Doug Grahams way of eating without talking about numbers. His method is callled the 80,10,10 or the 8,1,1 Diet. These numbers apply to the ratio of carbs, proteins and fats that he has found helpful as a trainer of elite athletes over the past 25 years.
Doug Graham works mainly with those people wanting to get better results in both performance and muscle definition.

Both Raw Green Neet and I follow this way of eating and also his hygenic way of life. Not all raw foodist are followers of the hygenic tradition. However this has worked for me and helped me overcome chronic asthma. So I stay with it.

But of course I stray from time to time and need to reset my sails and take a quick bearing, so-to-speak. Now that the weather is getting warmer, I find it much easier to maintain a balanced program than in winter when I feel rather glum.

Harley (Durianrider) is currently at a camp in the US run by the good Dr Graham and is simply reporting what he heard.

Now I have to tell you that Harley also eats masses of durians and his fat levels would be much higher than 10%. However the program takes all that into consideration and the goal is to eat that ratio over a full year or two.

I hope that explains some of the numbers thing and I think Harley was trying to shock us when he posted that 2% body fat was not too low in males. Maybe not, but I don't think I would like to cuddle that man somehow.

Joss

The funny thing is that even Doug would never calculate numbers on a regular basis. They just do lots of fruit, salads, and occasionally some avocado, tahini, durian etc. The numbers are just what it works out to if you calculate it, and for people just starting eating a certain way sometimes the numbers help.

For my mother they best way she loses weight is to write down everything she eats, and calculate exact calories and fat grams. It's a way for her to monitor intake, and quantify it. And for her it works.

Some people like numbers, others don't. Great!! Doesn't mean one way is right and the other is wrong in any way. I did like what veganwolf said though in that sometimes people get fixated on a number, and that number determines if they are happy or if they are not. When things get like that it's definitely a sign that some personal work is needed to see what's really happening, because you so know it's not really about the number.

In the book "Feeding the Hungry Heart" I'm reading right now it's all about emotional eating. The author has worked with people for decades on the topic. The interesting thing she finds is every participant in her program thinks if they can only get to a certain number their lives will be perfect and they will be happy. When in reality most get there and realize nothing has changed, and they were just pinning their unhappiness on a number.

When people eat for emotional reasons its because there are other needs not being met. Take the need for food when you're not hungry and use it as a tool to see what you really need. Maybe some time out, a bath, some exercise. There are many ways of fulfilling needs, and food is only one of them.

That's my 2 cents anyhow!
Sheryl

numbers are numbers i agree. and in this world of arbituary numbers is easy to write them all off. i enjoy using numbers to give people more detail. or when im doing vo2max tests at uni etc. or weighing myself after hard training in hot weather to see hydration levels and recovery on different foods. i find it quite useful.

but at the end of the day, its how we feel that really counts.

during durian season , after a few months of eating it daily, i put on 2-3kg. but withing 2 or 3 days of not eating fats, i drop it.

i enjoy using the positive numerical feedback i get on the raw lifestyle and sharing with others. cos deep down, we all are motivated by numbers of some sort. im yet to meet someone whom isnt.

Aha the plot thickens. Now I am wondering who that might be....Is this the place to confess that I love pedometers? Perhaps not. I agree that women sometimes have a warped body image, but can you really blame us. All around us waifs are being portrayed as the ideal size.

Now I totally agree with you about health. i was going to post that i did not "catch" one single cold or flu this winter. How great is that, considering I am in the top two cohorts for influenza.

1. I am 65

2. Asthmatic

Now that I am 65 I get a nice free influenza shot from my doctor every year. I politely decline it. But as I hardly visit her these days  I did not have to do anything.

Unfortunately I have scarred lungs from years of wheezing and there is not much I can do about this anyway, so why worry.

Joss