I agree with both kebbester and Oxygen!

God gave us such an amazing machine - is able to combat so many stressors, pollution, you name it!!!  Reducing it to 'science' and counting carbs and numbers is just not doing it justice!!!  We should be able to listen to our bodies so that it can tell us what it needs - every day is different!!!  I am wary about a one size fits all diet!  Sure you can read 80 10 10 for a bit of guidance but the rest is up to you!!

My personal opinion - many people i feel are going to become obsessed with eating raw and 'falling off the wagon' that it might create a new generation of eating disorders!!!
There is no wagon to fall off of!!!  Your body is the wagon - you steam some veggies and eat some raw ones and you are happy and fullfilled?? I'd say you might be better off than some raw foodists obsessing about what they can't combine with what so much so that they miss the sunrise and the chirping bird!

awsome

some points i would like to make.
1. those that know calories accurately could read someones' post and find the daily inaccuracy. the ignorant will probably find my whole point rather confusing.

2. nobody, is 100% raw vegan and succeeding in their chosen sport without understanding carb calories and the amount of fruit it takes to consume to reach that amount of daily carbs. NOBODY!
My buddy is fitter than she was as a teenager and thats great. but i know she couldnt ride to work and back no sweat. as ration diets dont give stamina..maybe in 'essene gospbel of peace kung fu breatharian monk folklore' but not in people we personally know.

3. people that say you dont need to count calories so dependent on concentrated foods like nuts, oils, refined sugar, cooked food etc? cos if you took away these things they would have a couple peices of fruit left..

4. i train with world class endurance cyclists. they ALL know caloric content of their chosen foods and how much they need to consume in order to perform.

5. i find it amusing when people say im eating the amount i do for emotional reasons....lol! where were they in the recent 24hr solo xc race i won?..i burned just over 17000cals to win that race. thats what my friend was eating in 12days with my calculations of her caloric intake...so is it eating for emotion? or eating to go the distance?

6. can anyone name a succesful raw vegan leader (whom could actually run 10km in under 45) that DOESNT promote caloric understanding?

7. yes indeed i reccomended my friend to a SUPERVISED fast in costa rica. it involves complete bed rest for up to 3-5 weeks. NOTHING heals like a fast. of course one needs to do the correct things after the fast too. stress is another factor if you have UC. imagine trying to be raw when your partner drinks beer and smokes. i KNOW my friend holds the record for longest time raw whilst being surrounded by nice friends and family yet they are so cooked they have to cook the air they breathe..ie having that continual raw support network is another crucial factor in succeeding on raw. She aint allowed to mingle at her old raw forums, potlucks, shops, haunts etc...thats gotta be stressful. cos no way id still be raw without the continual support i recieve from my direct raw community. having regular contact with like minded peers is ESSENTIAL in any life pursuit. as whom we hang around is whom we become...

8. yes many factors affect our nutrition other than the food we consume. our hydration affects our nutrition, our body fat levels affect our nutrition (more body fat = less nutrition) , our emotional poise effects our nutrition. our rest, sleep, sun, time to ourselves etc all play a massive yet often overlooked part in our nutrition.

9. wary about a one size fits all diet? i would be too! there are thousands of different fruits and tender greens to eat. some people end up in hospital with reactions to bananas initially. (ive never met anyone but heard its possible..) but like anything, we can only know if something works if we follow the correct instructions. .i know a lot more than i did a year ago about optimum nutrition. its been another year on the highway riding thousands of km's of testing what works and what doesnt. not only on my self but on others. letting them be their own test machines and seeing what didnt work for them. ive had some behind the scenes chats with some raw leaders and seen the 'raw wars' going on behind the scenes..lol!

10. i agree god gave us such amazing machines. so amazing im gonna eat the food that god provides. not boiled, broiled, steamed, creamed, zapped, nuked or flapped. just raw plant food in amounts that id find in nature.

11. there is an 1m avocado tree growing 30cm from the main resturant st in adelaide. its in a floral display pot. i put the seed in years ago. didnt push it in...its just a regular composting pot i use..no i cant guarantee any seed i plant wont get chopped. NOBODY can..lol! all we can do is throw our seeds into places that might have a chance...the rain will do the rest. often the best fruits i eat are off dry irrigated wild trees that are unkept...

12. oxygen, yep i and many others have recieved those benefits and more. my history is drug & junk food addict chronic fatigue couch potato to being able to boast that im gonna win the 2008 sa state champs 24hr race before its even started and then i win it..thats confidence in ones health and nutrition and fitness...only when we eat as nature intended can we tap into that sort of innate ability. its never only just about food intake..as the above points indicate.

13. remember im here as example to show people how to be a raw vegan athlete. i know thats not what everyone wants and i wont be chasing you down the street with a box of bananas...but i hear a lot of crew complaining about not having the energy and fuel to go the distance in their daily pursuits. they chase their tails and get caught up in the latest greatest nutritional breakthrough..only to end up where they started. yet a little more confused and bruised. i dont think i have a message to share, i KNOW i have.

above all remember ITS NEVER WRONG TO DO THE RIGHT THING..

I think it boils down to eating as much sweet fruit and soft greens as you can. How much simpler can it be than that?

Harley, I know about counting more than an average person, I have a solid background in maths (applied, probability, statistics, operations research etc), have 3 degrees in maths including PhD, some years of research, solution of various problems in real-life environments and published papers, supervision of postgraduates etc. Understanding the calorie count is a no-brainer for me (this is a task I could accomplish before my teenage years), I find it rudimentary maths. I have done some counting, just for fun, and even played with solving some (simple in my view) problems around 811 (some of them posted on this forum, which turned out to be too difficult for others to follow) just for fun, because I love playing with maths, and I could not resist the opportunity. Still, I am absolutely positive that counting calories is absoloutely unnecessary for anyone doing raw food diet (but can be done just for fun and curiosity, as humans often do).

When the idea of 811 first got my attention (which happened after me being raw for quite some time, which is not a mere coincidence), I calculated what I had been eating over some period of time, and it turned out that that it was according to the ratios in 811. Since going raw 5 years ago, I met countless examples of people who have progressed to high-fruit low-fat spontaneously, over some period of time. Bryan from rawfoodsupport has been about 20% fat (after doing raw for some time), stayed like this for  a while, then the % dropped to around 10%, totally spontaneously. Nora Lenz from rawschool has gone through a gradual spontaneous progression. Audrey from rawhealing. Many others that I met. Why does this occurs? Because it feels good, and because when people learn to hear their body natural instincts, and then eventually follow them, it just happens. Fruit tastes good, and high fat does not feel good, so obviously, the natural progression can't be avoided (unless one gives more power to their mind then instincts). So, simply observing the pattern of eating and making a connection with how we feel is sufficient.

From the two alternative way of doing raw:
1) Count calories and try to stick to 811 ratios,
2) Listen to your body and respond to its signals,
I prefer (2). Number (1) is a no-brainer but it ignores the fact that the body knows better than others (who tell you what to do), or you might think. As a result people might do things against their body,  even though they mean well, have best intentions and commitment, and end up in some serious problems (like it did happen on this board). Further, number (1) takes power away from people who are told that someone else knows better than them, and what's good for their body. People are told they are a goner unless they do what they are told (eek!). Number (2) does require some thought, but perhaps most people are capable of it? I would rather focus on developing my ability to respond to the natural instincts that are within me, then follow someone else's prescriptions.

So, if you do feel like counting then, yeah, no problem, do it by all means. But when you insist that all others must do it it too, otherise they are ignorant, or eating a bad diet, then I tell you, you are wrong.

Gosia

I don't know - I can see the logic.

If I ride a bike wrong - I fall off.
If I eat wrong - I feel like crap.

Makes sense.

S.

Melb, I applaud you for stating this observation.  I have thought the same, and by my counting calories, that actually enforces more of an anorexic/bulimic mentality in me because I am so focused on my body instead of just living and gauging how I feel.  Many people in raw are sooo focused on how they look, and they think that through the body comes spiritual enlightenment.  I thought it was the other way around?  Well, at least it was for me. 

I know Harley will not be budged with his mentality, so I am just addressing Mel here in her astute thoughts.  Since I gained a few pounds since not being so obsessed with my body as I was early last year, I now feel ashamed to say I am a raw vegan because those poster children are all thin.  And, sex is totally interwoven in it, corresponding to being focused on what the eye sees.  It has nothing to do with spirituality unless we finally see the true picture of feeling healthy in a sense of vitality.  Now that I am more aware and grounded in who I am, now I can do raw better, although I will not do it by someone else's standards, for I have found many, wow, way too many leaders in the raw community to be so lacking in other important ways.

Oh, I just want to add that I do think, though, that we can undereat on calories and gain more nutrition on raw.  I also heard from Victoria Boutenko that the higher nutrition means we can eat less.  But then again, she and her family did overall eat more calorically dense, fatty foods, so the few times they ate less must have been counterbalanced by eating more.  I know from my own experience with runner Tim VanOrden that this happened with him when he also said he didn't need to eat so much.  But, maybe he didn't with the amount of running he did.  He ate lots of fat at the time, but now he is eating more fruit, he says.  I don't know the full story now.

If actually "counting calories" is a necessary component to successfully adopt and utilise what is supposedly mankinds el-primo diet....well....I must be missing something here....

What's "natural" about counting what you eat?

What's "necessary" about it?

I can understand it from an elite athlete viewpoint...as in necessary to them  ....but how does that same logic and necessity transfer to anyone who isn't a full-on athlete?

If 811 works...then it should work at any level of activity naturally .

On the one hand we have the "argument" that people have survived and thrived without the blessing of 811 because the human machine is so remarkable and adaptable. Well how's this for a possible counter-view...people have survived (dunno about thrived unless ya get it "just so" ) on 811 only because of the adaptability of the human body.

Now...

Are not both views equally as extreme as each other?

I don't see a lot of tolerance, let alone encouragement, for those who simply wanna improve their life and health by adopting a high raw diet and adding a bit of excercise to their daily lives.

And if 5,000 people did that I'd consider that of vastly more importance and impact than..say...6...people who "mastered" 811....

John

Just wanted to ask you how long had you been raw before your eyes changed to blue and was it on 100% raw?  I believe that's a sign that you body had detoxed/ healed?